Asphalt for storing hay

[firemen122]

Eddie I will have to agree to disagree with you. Concrete is porous and is permeable. It always has moisture in it and the moisture can move one way or the other. I am trying to tell you that in areas of florida if you do not use a vapor barrier in some places that your socks can and will get damp without hvac pulling moisture out. The fire station I am sitting in right now is built on ground that never dries, all year round there is standing water around and moisture under this structure it is a classic example. Volunteers built the front half years ago and used no barrier, the back was built later with barrier. lose power and ya better be careful walking on the front floors because they are wet and slick, back floors stay dry as a bone. Also if you have impending flame on a concrete for any length of time ya have to watch out for spalding. Spalding is when the moisture in the concrete becomes steam. Water expands ration of 17,000 to 1. Spalding is where chunks of concrete violently let loose from the main slab, wall, ceiling etc. Remember physics tells us a hummingbird cannot fly.





UOTE=EddieWalker;1599382]JB,

I enjoyed reading all three links, but don't think we're talking about the same thing. In the links you provided, the problems are drainage related. While a few methods were mentioned to avoid this, I didn't see where moisture was able to get through a solid slab. Cracks were a big factor in the amount of moisture that was able to get through the slab, but only with allot of moisture in the soild benieth the slab. Again, this isn't apples to apples. I can see the challenge in diagnosing these issues in flooring problems, but don't see how it relates to the misconception that a concrete slab on a properly built pad allows water to pass through it.

Eddie[/QUOTE]

 

[backdoor]

Yeah, concrete wicks water. I build houses and small commercial buildings for a living. We use concrete regularly for floors, and walls where they will be covered with dirt. Most of our houses have one or two walls underground, where we have strict rules of dampproofing, inspected by our code officials. Same for concrete floors. We pour floors over 4 inches of washed gravel, covered with a 6-mil plastic vapor barrier, and the walls are 10 inches thick, with drain tile and gravels along side the footer, covered with a silt barrier, and the outside of the wall is covered with 2 coats of bituminous dampproofing continuing out onto the footer. The finish grade has to slope down 6 inches in the first 10 feet out from the building for drainage. If you cut a slit in the plastic beneath the floor, or miss a spot on the wall coating, you can easily find the area inside the building. It will be darker gray than the rest of the concrete. We have to use pressure treated wood anywhere it will touch concrete, inside or outside, due to moisture wicking into the wood. Anytime we remove concrete slabs, the dirt beneath them is always unifomly damp, definately not bone dry, no matter if the slab is above or below grade. All this is in SW VA. I expect the rest of the world is the same, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Egon]

Without a doubt concrete has permeability. Some more than others depending the types of materials used.

My basement will leak during periods of heavy rain!

If a slab for hay barn is properly built; that is the base area is prepared and packed with all materials that can support capillary action removed, followed by a nice course of crushed gravel sub base followed by plastic and the then a high quality concrete mix poured and finished off with a good sealer and I'd be happy.

The water source and pressure has been removed.

Pads above ground are not subjected to the same conditions as basement walls and floors.

 

[Egon]

Some of you wished to have floors that breathed. There is a concrete that will do this.


The Cement Association of Canada - Pervious Concrete

Again for this type of floor the base construction is the important factor. All capillary action supported materials must be removed. A nice impervious packed clay pad built. Lay down an impervious membrane. Cover with crushed coarse gravel and pour the pervious type concrete mix.

To really finish of this type of approach lay a grid of perforated pipe in the coarse granular material and leave it open to atmosphere or have set up so air pressure [hot air] could be applied. This should keep the hay happy and dry!

Done properly wet hay could even be dried!

 

[JB4310]

I'm torn on this issue, I know that concrete as well as all masonry is permeable through capillary action as well as vapor penetration and is not a myth. Seen it first hand wreak all kinds of havoc on different components of a buildings construction, and have made a career out of dealing with it.
But by the same token I've never seen clear evidence that concrete slabs wicking water was the sole water problem, and after physical drainage was installed under a slab even in the wettest of conditions the slab surface will appear bone dry.
I've done over 500 basement drainage systems (conservative est) on existing homes that never had vapor barriers and even when finished with sub-slab drainage system, the static water level under the floor can be as little as 6-8 inches below the entire floor for months at a time. That floor, except the new perimeter drain area, can be sitting on very poorly drained fill which would seem to be ripe for capillary action, but as I said as long as the water level is kept below floor level the floor "appears" bone dry.

Whether something unseen is going on there like the moisture is coming thru and evaporating all the time I'm not sure, most of these I'm referring to are below grade as much as 8 FT, you would think for slabs at or above grade the conditions would have to be less bad.

That's why I did not jump on Eddy for his strong stance that he doesn't believe wicking is possible or that it's a wife's tale.
I don't think it's condensation on the surface of the concrete that's spoiling the hay as was suggested, as that would require there to be wide temperature variations between the surface and the air over it, I think with all that hay there it would insulate that area and a fairly constant temp would be maintained.

I really don't know where to come down on this, I think we have to trust the anecdotal evidence from those who have experienced these problems, which should vary widely due to geographic location as well as all the critical influencing factors such as soil types, average high and low temps, average humidity etc.

Just curious Robert, How much of that bottom layer of hay gets spoiled over a 6-12 month period and does the spoiled hay present a health risk to the livestock or is it just wasted.

JB.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Just curious Robert, How much of that bottom layer of hay gets spoiled over a 6-12 month period and does the spoiled hay present a health risk to the livestock or is it just wasted.

JB.

The bottom layer will have spoilage from an inch to 4" in the barn I currently use. This hay can't be fed to horses and generally shouldn't be used for bedding either if the people use hay for bedding their horses. So the bottom bales are generally not wanted by customers unless the hay was just put in the barn.

 

[AKfish]

If concrete were as porous and susceptible to "wicking", capillary action, hydraulic action; or any other form of water penetration - why is it used for dams, bridges, culverts, aquaducts??

I'm in agreement with Eddie's perspective. If there's water on the surface of the concrete it's the result of a crack or break or failed seam or failed drainage network for below grade applications.

Above grade - it's condensation.

AKfish

 

[Egon]

Above grade - it's condensation.

As you fellows have been saying all along and I'll agree.

One can check out some sites on hay storage and that is what they will say too.

 

[backdoor]

Concrete is used for dams, bridges, culverts, and such because of its extreme strength compared to cost. If you want to find out about the wicking effect, take a piece of concrete about 12 inches by 12 inches by 4 or 5 inches and put it in a very dry place for a few weeks, or maybe your oven at a warm temperature for a few days, just so you get it completely dry. Weigh it precisely. Then put the concrete in a bucket of water for a few days, completely covered. Weigh it again. You can see how much water it will soak up. Saw that chunk open and look at the color inside, you'll see it is much darker, as in damper, than the dry piece was. Getting back to the original question, we used to store hay on concrete floors with no bad effects, but it was on the concrete for less than a year before we fed it up.

 

[Hoosier Hay Man]

I agree with the theory of cool concrete and warm air create it to sweat more than wicking. My concrete in my shop has a vapor barrier and it will sweat as we are changing to spring. If I stack hay directly on the floor it will mold.

Also it maybe the hay going through it's sweat and the moisture is trapped at the bottom of the stack between the hay and concrete and can't breath. Hay sitting on wood will tend to do it less but will sometimes still mold on the bottom. I think the weight of the stack sealing the bottom row down causing the most problem, it can't breath io evaporate the moisture.

I am not sure why the asphault would be better but these guys who have tryed think so. Interesting read.

Here is the link to the article though.

Hay, buildings and vehicles stay clean, says grower | Asphalt's Advantages

 

[slowzuki]

I think the big problem people have is where the water is coming from:

As Eddie said, concrete at less than condensing temp, the water is coming from the air.

If you get water and the concrete is higher than condensing temp, its coming from the ground.

Normally the air inside a heated space can carry away moisture fast enough that the top of a slab will look dry even if it is carrying a pile of water. It is still pumping water into the dwelling though.

A vapour barrier is not meant to stop water. Uncracked concrete is water impermeable but not vapour impermeable.

 

[jejennings]

I'm building a new hay barn now, and have been trying to figure out the best floor too. From what I understand, any moisture coming up from the ground can be blocked with a plastic vapor barrier. However, there is still some moisture left in the hay, and that is why concrete even with a vapor barrier isn't the best since the bottom of the hay can't breathe. I was told that you can get a coarse grade of asphalt, similar to the stuff used in base layers of roads, that has minimal fines and is therefore very porous. As long as the aspahalt is covered under the roof, I don't think the heat would soften it that much. Other option is crushed stone, but I would think that would become a mess eventually with loose hay mixed in. I'll be using a bale wagon, so pallets aren't a possibility.

I am presently sending out quote requests for a 18' x 50' x 112' hay barn in which I plan to pour a concrete floor. I am fully aware of the problems of condensation from storing bales in trailers and containers. I just bought a NH 1037 Stacker wagon and was wondering if anyone had considered or tried:
1. Laying down 4" x 4" x 8' fence posts before tipping a load in the barn?
2. Sliding pallets over the forks of the sliding rack so that when the load
is tipped and pushed off, it will be sitting on the pallets?

Jack

 

[threeman]

I built a new hay barn this year myself. I needed to use some fill to keep water from running underneath one end, it was built in a lower corner of the property. Kind of out of the way so to speak. I used a plastic vapor barrior (visquine(?) to keep moisture from seeping up through the dirt just as you would with concrete. So far its powder dry underneath the barn and we have just have a flood in last few weeks. Round rolls are sitting right on the dirt with no wet spots. I used to use pallets but it still molds even sitting on them because the air is damp underneath the pallets. So I decided to not use them in the new barn for rolls and squares.

I also used "crush and run" basically ground concrete once before. It didnt work either. Its mostly large pieces of gravel, from powder to about size of railroad rock, but it would mold with hay stacked on it just as bad as the dirt.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I am presently sending out quote requests for a 18' x 50' x 112' hay barn in which I plan to pour a concrete floor. I am fully aware of the problems of condensation from storing bales in trailers and containers. I just bought a NH 1037 Stacker wagon and was wondering if anyone had considered or tried:
1. Laying down 4" x 4" x 8' fence posts before tipping a load in the barn?
2. Sliding pallets over the forks of the sliding rack so that when the load
is tipped and pushed off, it will be sitting on the pallets?

Jack

I have talked to other guys who built up pallets to fit their stack wagons. The downside to the pallets on the stack wagon is it slows you down. You have to mess around putting on a new pallet every time you unload plus you have to build the pallets which takes time and money. The bottom line is it has been done but it slows down the stack wagon and you have a bunch of pallets to contend with and handle.

 

[threeman]

pallets are a pain in the rear and they really dont save us any hay

 

[jimmysisson]

jejennings, you'll be pleased with yourself later if you spring for 1" of blue foam under the slab, I promise. Much less sweating, and no capillary action. Usually it's about 50 cents a sq. ft., so $2,800 plus labor for you. You might be able to get it cheaper in that large a quantity.
I guess you can curse a lot (of condensation) for that amount of money, but it sure is hard to put foam under a slab after it's poured.
Jim