ARC Fault Breakers. Your Experiences.

[Industrial Toys]

Thanks

I will.

They must have filters to keep from seeing the rest of the system. Otherwise you might guess that welding would shut off the lot of them.

 

[Travelover]

I had to install them when I replaced my service box. On circuit has X10 switches that send a tiny signal through the wires to operate remote switches. Every time I used one X10 switch it tripped the arc fault. Since I'd passed the inspection, I replaced it with a regular breaker. $50 paperweight.

 

[Industrial Toys]

VERY INTERESTING, X-10 (sundowner) has been turning the lights on and off here since the 80s. Maybe it tripped the ARKY thingamajigger. Strange though, since they don't use RF. I have all the technical nomenclature but I think they just put signals on the 60HZ wave.

I guess the old flourescent tube starters would trip those things too.

 

[buickanddeere]

Thanks. Still don't know why the 8 foot flourescent would trip it. Those 8 foot tubes only have single conductor ends. Maybe the contacts are arcing, because I don't believe there are any contacts inside the old magnetic ballast.

We just keep heading in a direction that makes life totally dysfunctional!

How about the possibility of the AFCI sensing 殿rcs from the 8 foot long spark inside the Flourecemt lamps.

 

[CobyRupert]

My understanding is AFCI breakers look for the frequency associated with arcing, usually around 100khz.
How wide of a range around 100kHz, and for how long, and the magnitude, probably determines how sensitive they are and how much nuisance trips you get. This is probably why they can trip if there's other noise in the area at this frequency. (RFI?) Or if your also imposing a high frequency communication signal onto the 60 hertz circuit.

My understanding is fluorescent lighting is just arcing in a special gas between two electrodes, and a high impedance transformer (ballast) that limits the current so that this "short circuit" arcing doesn't trip your breaker, while also boosting the voltage so you get the arcing. Maybe this arcing frequency in the gas gets transposed into the current being drawn on the line side of the ballast and is detected by the AFCI. That is, typically the ballast should smooth the current being drawn, but if the arc is drawing current (in a: "now I am, now I'm not" fashion) at 100 kHz, the line side of the ballast and AFCI may see some of that too, and trip.

Regarding a kinked wire tripping them, as mentioned above, there was either some arcing occurring where the kink caused the insulation to be stressed. Or perhaps it caused a reflected wave back to the AFCI that it saw the interference pattern that mimicked 100khz? Doubtful though, as probably any wire termination (boundary) could have this.
:2cents:

 

[skipmarcy]

Maybe it's something similar to what has happened in my industry - auto repair, where cheap quality parts are causing all kinds of problems. I built my house in 2006 and had to use arc faults on 3 circuits and not one of them has tripped in 13 years now. I have a GE service panel and all GE brand breakers. Although it wasn't required, I used GFI breakers in all the other 110v locations and they are all GE and haven't had to replace a single one. I personally did every bit of wiring myself in my house too, and know exactly each and every connection. I also drove every single nail, screw etc. so I know there's no damages to wiring from that. An electrician, no matter how skilled, cannot watch an apprentice or helper do every bit of their tasks.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Well, I got around to replacing a couple of magnetic ballasts on two eight foot T12-96 fixtures that were tripping my arc fault breaker. Changed the first to an electronic ballast and it again tripped within a few seconds. Changed the second and it stayed on. Noticed a bulb was not working on the first, so put it in the second and it also did not work, but did not trip out the breaker. Put the good bulb back in the first and the breaker held! So WTF? Maybe those lousy push in terminals on the bulb sockets?

Irritating! So now I either get rid of the arc fault breaker or have to install some kind of Emergency Lighting so I don't get caught in the dark on a second floor of the barn.

 

[grsthegreat]

Just lose the arkfault breakers. Lighting in outbuildings don’t need arkfault or GFCI protection. Only outlets in outbuildings need GFCI protection.

 

[Industrial Toys]

We have no insurance since 1975. So I try and do what I can to protect my assetts. Fortunately, the cats earn their keep and keep the rodent population in control.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Now that it's gotten cold, BOTH arc fault breakers are tripping with nothing running on them! Googled it and there appears something to this. Panel is not in a heated space. Some say, breakers can detect upstream arcing as well. I think they gotta go!

 

[ultrarunner]

As a property manager GFCI and ARC generate nuisance service calls... I say nuisance because the tenant owned device is almost universally at fault.

Then there was the tenant that expected me to pay for spoilage. They plugged their refrigerator into a GFCI outlet and the defrost condensate was obstructed because of dirt causing water to overflow onto electrical.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I thought you meant Electron Spillage? lol Spoilage! Got it.

I see this as becoming a MAJOR, MAJOR problem. Especially with the GFI/ARC combo breakers. Should be a class action lawsuit against the lawmakers, but how do you sue yourself and win?

 

[mmancuso13]

Mine always tripped! Pure junk and probably a money maker for the manufacturers, electricians and county code departments.

I removed them all but marked the slots so on the event we sell they can be put back to meet code for when we received U&O

 

[fried1765]

Mine always tripped! Pure junk and probably a money maker for the manufacturers, electricians and county code departments.

I removed them all but marked the slots so on the event we sell they can be put back to meet code for when we received U&O

I totally agree!
Expensive, worthless gadgetry!

 

[grsthegreat]

It is something I don't recall ever having been mentioned here.

I don't have fire insurance, and routinely shut off the breakers in my barn. A bit of a pain. Then, I was at The RESTORE and found two brand new Siemens 15 Amp ARC fault breakers. I installed them in the panel, in the lighting circuits I use the most. Immediately, one didn't like an eight foot ballasted flourescent fixture in my storage room. A few days later, the other had tripped.

I am curious to hear, what people think of these ARC fault breakers, now mandated here in all sleeping areas. Are they just another level of nuisance in an imperfect world like GFIs?

Were these new stock? Siemens had issues with early generation of arc faults not operating properly in unconditioned...ie heated... spaces. I had lots of them fail in unheated garages. New ones don’t have this issue

 

[fried1765]

I thought you meant Electron Spillage? lol Spoilage! Got it.

I see this as becoming a MAJOR, MAJOR problem. Especially with the GFI/ARC combo breakers. Should be a class action lawsuit against the lawmakers, but how do you sue yourself and win?

I understand that Canada now requires ARC fault breakers for not just bedrooms, but for ALL rooms of a private residence.
UGH !!! $$$$$$$.

I just love Canadian regulations.
Will the revised Canadian nut/bolt code soon require the use of anti seize lubricant?

 

[grsthegreat]

I understand that Canada now requires ARC fault breakers for not just bedrooms, but for ALL rooms of a private residence.
UGH !!! $$$$$$$.

I just love Canadian regulations.
Will the revised Canadian nut/bolt code soon require the use of anti seize lubricant?

not just canada. us electrical codes have required arc faults on ALL residential rooms not protected by a gfci circuit. not all states have adopted this ruling yet though. Was passed in 2014 in some states....adopted in Washington state about 3 years ago.not required in idaho ...yet

 

[CobyRupert]

I understand that Canada now requires ARC fault breakers for not just bedrooms, but for ALL rooms of a private residence.
UGH !!! $$$$$$$.

I just love Canadian regulations.
Will the revised Canadian nut/bolt code soon require the use of anti seize lubricant?

So does the U.S.'s National Electric Code (N.E.C. / NFPA-70).
Article 210.12(A): "Dwelling Units: All 120V, 1-phase, 15A/20A branch circuits supplying outlets or devices installed in dwelling units shall be protected by..." and arc fault device.

Also remember that an "outlet" is not just a receptacle, but anywhere which current is taken to supply devices (like a lighting box, smoke alarm outlet, appliance outlet, etc...).

 

[mmancuso13]

So since this thread started it, here you go...

An arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) also known as an arc-fault detection device (AFDD)[1] is a circuit breaker that breaks the circuit when it detects an electric arc in the circuit it protects to prevent electrical fires.

An AFCI selectively supposedly distinguishes between a harmless arc (incidental to normal operation of switches, plugs, and brushed motors), and a potentially dangerous arc (that can occur, for example, in a lamp cord which has a broken conductor).

AFCI breakers have been required for circuits feeding electrical outlets in residential bedrooms by the electrical codes of Canada and the United States since the beginning of the 21st century; the U.S. National Electrical Code has required them to protect most residential outlets since 2014,[2] and the Canadian Electrical Code has since 2015.[3]

In parts of the world using 230 V, where the higher voltage implies lower currents, specifically Western Europe and the UK, adoption is slower, and their use is optional, except in high risk cases.

In the US, arc faults are one of the leading causes for residential electrical fires.[4] Each year in the United States, over 40,000 fires are attributed to home electrical wiring.
These fires result in over 350 deaths and over 1,400 injuries each year.[5]

Ok so ends the supposed reasons for ACFI breakers...

Now how do they work?

Conventional circuit breakers only respond to overloads and short circuits, so they do not protect against arcing conditions that produce erratic, and often reduced current.

AFCIs are devices designed to protect against fires caused by arcing faults in the home electrical wiring.

The AFCI circuitry continuously monitors the current and supposedly discriminates between normal and unwanted arcing conditions.

Once detected, the AFCI opens its internal contacts, thus de-energizing the circuit and reducing the potential for a fire to occur.

Great! So then what is the problem?

Well the problem my friends - for all the non-electrical engineers out there is inductance! The property or a wire to resist the change of the flow of current and to generate a magnetic field and store and release energy because of flow...

Humm - well the problem is that a great many things produce stray voltage in wiring - like the flow of current in an adjacent wire or magnetic fields, or lightning or even sun spots!

And many of these stray currents (perhaps all to those of us who hate these things!) looks like an arc to these dumb breakers and they trip!

So the bottom line is that a device designed to help prevent fires and help us is helping us rip out our hair in frustration!

So because the holidays are near I wish you a very Merry Arc fault and a happy new year!

 

[CobyRupert]

Sun spots can cause AFCI breakers to trip!!
Is that during a waxing or waning moon?

Like I said in post #25: My understanding is AFCI breakers look for the frequency associated with arcing, usually around 100khz.
How wide of a range around 100kHz, and for how long, and the magnitude, probably determines how sensitive they are and how much nuisance trips you get. This is probably why they can trip if there's other noise in the area at this frequency. (RFI?) Or if something is imposing a high frequency component back onto the 60 hertz circuit. (by clipping on and off at a much faster rate. Sort of like when your at the gas pumps and the guy 3 pumps away is topping off his tank and YOUR hose jumps up and down. ...but nothing like that )

Will certain lighting ballasts do that?
Will some motor brushes do that?
Will certain types of AC inverter or SCR drives, etc.. do that?