ARC Fault Breakers. Your Experiences.

[Industrial Toys]

It is something I don't recall ever having been mentioned here.

I don't have fire insurance, and routinely shut off the breakers in my barn. A bit of a pain. Then, I was at The RESTORE and found two brand new Siemens 15 Amp ARC fault breakers. I installed them in the panel, in the lighting circuits I use the most. Immediately, one didn't like an eight foot ballasted flourescent fixture in my storage room. A few days later, the other had tripped.

I am curious to hear, what people think of these ARC fault breakers, now mandated here in all sleeping areas. Are they just another level of nuisance in an imperfect world like GFIs?

 

[grsthegreat]

Definitely hate them. Have major nuisance complaints from customers on them. Ive had them trip from static electricity from someones hands turning off a bedroom light switch, and from vacuum cleaners. Some states like Washington require Ark Faults on ALL circuits not protected by a GFCI. THATS ALL CIRCUITS. Poor slobs.

 

[Oldoak]

When we built our new house seven years ago, ARC Fault Breakers were required in certain rooms according to our state's building code which our local municipality strictly enforced. So much for rural living! Couldn't escape the code enforcement bureaucracy.

The electrician agreed they can be problematic. I asked what to do if they became a problem. I was told to toss them and replace them with standard ground-fault breakers. Going on seven years now, so far so good. I hope I didn't just jinx myself.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Thanks. That doesn't sound very promising. I'm curious if they even protect against a mouse chewing through a romex cable and starting a fire.

 

[RNeumann]

I have arc faults and have installed them too. They were designed to prevent damage or a fire from that prototypical plug behind the bed that has 27 things plugged into it. Plus it’s getting smashed and wiggled from the bed.
I wouldn’t go out of my way to install them. Not on light circuits and for sure not in my shop. If you wanted to be extra cautious in the shop a GFCI on the connivence plugs would be the way to go.

 

[Industrial Toys]

But a GFI won't protect from arcing, live to neutral. AND, they are not an over current device either.

I wonder what about that flourescent light, upset the AFB? I have electronic ballasts I have been meaning to retrofit as the lights don't always come on immediately in the cold (meaning just above zero in this room).

 

[CobyRupert]

Not just required in bedrooms.

By Code (NEC 210.12), and with very few exceptions, arc fault circuit interrupter protection is required on every Outlet in a dwelling that isn't otherwise required to be ground fault (GFCI) protected. Required in "kitchens, family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sunrooms, rec. rooms, closets, halls, laundry areas or similar rooms and areas..."

Also remember, an outlet isn't just a receptacle, it's any point where current is taken to supply utilization equipment (example: a lighting outlet (box) or heating circuit, etc..).

A GFCI breaker, will also provide thermal-magnetic overcurrent protection. A GFCI receptacle will be on a circuit that has overcurrent protection.

 

[k0ua]

It is something I don't recall ever having been mentioned here.

I don't have fire insurance, and routinely shut off the breakers in my barn. A bit of a pain. Then, I was at The RESTORE and found two brand new Siemens 15 Amp ARC fault breakers. I installed them in the panel, in the lighting circuits I use the most. Immediately, one didn't like an eight foot ballasted flourescent fixture in my storage room. A few days later, the other had tripped.

I am curious to hear, what people think of these ARC fault breakers, now mandated here in all sleeping areas. Are they just another level of nuisance in an imperfect world like GFIs?

There is a HUGE thread over on EHAM about them. Seems even a walkie talkie in the house keying up will trip them. Let alone your neighbors 100 watt rig. They are a MAJOR pain to hams.

 

[k0ua]

Here you can read until you bleary eyed on this thread:

Arc Fault Circuit Interrupters (AFCI's)

 

[Industrial Toys]

I wonder if anyone has had cases where one AFCI was problematic and the replacement not. Or, in other words, could I have bought a couple of AFCIs that were causing someone undue trouble?

 

[rbstern]

I can tell you AFCI is rough on electricians. AFCI breakers are very sensitive to minor wiring issues. We just got done with a house build late last year. The electrician installed AFCI breakers where required (most of the panel).

The electrician had to come back no less than five times over a few weeks to chase down problems with two breakers tripping. One was a bad breaker. The other breaker was replaced multiple times. There was no consistency to the tripping. Sometimes it would trip the moment a light switch was flipped. Other times, it tripped three hours after the same light switch was turned on, or another light on the same branch.

The electrician taught me the test procedure for the breakers: Flipping the breaker and holding the trip button puts an AFCI in test mode, and the number of seconds until it trips is the status indicator. It was very inconsistent in both my tests and his. He ended up pulling a bunch of new wire before figuring out where the issue was, finally identifying a kink in one of the pulls as the culprit. Would that kink have been a fire hazard? Hard to say.

 

[Industrial Toys]

WOW. Makes no sense to me. A kink, isn't a sparking connection. It seems they must be looking for a certain frequency. Wonder what that is?

What a pain rewiring a crowded albeit neat panel to dig out the neutrals. I actually (for once) turned off the panel power.

 

[teejk]

How many of us are old enough to remember houses with no arc-fault or GFCI? We escaped the arc-fault code requirement here by a few months (pulled the permit before the mandate). If I had them, I'd wait for the inspector to sign off and replace them with regular breakers (keeping them of course in case we were selling at which time I'd reinstall them and let the buyer deal with it).

 

[Paddy]

Industrial Toys,

The principle behind an arc fault breaker is very good. A regular breaker will only trip if the current exceeds the rating. GFI, fault to ground. The tricky issue of arcs are if they don't pull a current higher than the breaker or go to ground, you have a mini arc welder zapping a way.

The device plugged in to the outlet limits the current. For example if you have a toaster oven plugged in and either the plug is loose or the wire is frayed, it will arc but not trip a regular breaker.

Old houses will often have receptacles that are so loose they hardly hold a plug in! very dangerous. Some light switches "buzz" due to worn contacts. So in summary, make sure your switches have a solid snap, receptacles are tight and replaced after 20 years either way. Cords on all devices are replaced if they look bad.

Never have wire nutted connection outside a box!

 

[CobyRupert]

I do wonder what the percentages are when a AFCI breaker "doesn't work" and is swapped back to a regular therm-mag breaker, if the reason was:
1) Bad AFCI?
2) Something incompatible in the AFCI's design with "legitimate" arcs in a particular load (that is: the AFCI isn't "sophisticated enough" to distinguish good from bad arcs)?
3) The circuit wiring, switch, or appliance has some flaws, worn, has larger arcs than normal and AFCI is legitimately operating?

Personally, I think a GFCI provides more than adequate additional protection beyond a traditional therm-mag breaker for preventing any magic smoke from leaking out of the wires , and AFCI is asking for nuisance trips.

 

[buickanddeere]

Don’t use GFCI or AFCI to supply fridges, feeezers, sump pumps or smoke detectors .

 

[buickanddeere]

Universal AC motors , motors that use brushes such as vacuum cleaners , electric drills , food processors will trip AFCI.

 

[grsthegreat]

Don’t use GFCI or AFCI to supply fridges, feeezers, sump pumps or smoke detectors .

I agree 100%, however electrical inspectors in Washington state say otherwise. Idaho inspectors will let kit refers slide by, but anything in garage still needs gfci. Luckily Idaho still does not require everything except gfci circuits to be ark fault protected. Im retiring from electrical trade this year, so i wont have to deal with it any more. I will only be installing a few generators and still doing generator service calls.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Thanks. Still don't know why the 8 foot flourescent would trip it. Those 8 foot tubes only have single conductor ends. Maybe the contacts are arcing, because I don't believe there are any contacts inside the old magnetic ballast.

We just keep heading in a direction that makes life totally dysfunctional!

 

[k0ua]

Thanks. Still don't know why the 8 foot flourescent would trip it. Those 8 foot tubes only have single conductor ends. Maybe the contacts are arcing, because I don't believe there are any contacts inside the old magnetic ballast.

We just keep heading in a direction that makes life totally dysfunctional!

Probably the RF energy emitted by the tube. Did you look at the EHAM thread I posted? It will explain a lot with some of these arc fault breakers. Steps have been taken by some of the manufactures to mitigate the sensitivity to RF that a lot of these things have, but some of them are a real problem.