Anybody dig into the cable-actuated joystick/loader valve on a NX series tractor?

[PMJG207]

The wind in snow makes everything more complex. If I remember right the cab NX have 4 relays above the radiator. 1 4pin 70-80 amp glow plug. 3 5 pin 20 amp. 1 for cab stuff(no nothing about that one), 1 for ecm, fuel shut off and air shut off and then the last one is for starting. I’ve seen a picture with them labeled but I can’t remember where. Try 5.7 in the shop manual. Or post 6 on this thread….

NX5010 Trouble with Safety Switches

Not my first tractor or Kioti, but this NX5010 Cab (manual) is new (less than 50 hrs). Hopped in after a few days off of the tractor and found that the key would not engage the starter. Various troubleshooting has the issue nailed down to one of the safety relays not allowing for start. - If I...

www.tractorbynet.com

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Eric, on my 2014 NX4510HC, the 70A starter relay is mounted on the firewall. Easy to get to even with frozen fingers!

Also, it's probably a long shot, but have a look at this starting problem I had with my NX a few years ago.
Tip for NX-Series Owners: Mysterious starting problem solved

Thanks, Threepoint. I have a 70A cab fuse and a pair of 60A fuses on the radiator brace/firewall, and all checked good on continuity using an ohmmeter. Unless I'm missing something easy (and why not, I'm getting dumber as I age, smile), can you do me a favor and shoot a photo or circle an arrow on an existing photo showing the starter relay? Meanwhile, this Unidentified Relay (see the first photo and second photo for the context of location) clicks with the start switch but doesn't show up anywhere in its location in the service manual or parts books that I possess.

I have not noticed any obvious mouse damage, and I've yet to puzzle out how the fuel heater element powers up. If I could get the fuel heater working, I could suffer the winter using my remote starter with the key on to fire up until warmer temperatures come and I can really find out what is going on. That said, I'll check out your link. Thank you.

Edit: after looking at the part number, it is coming up on the internet as a temperature relay used in Cub-Cadets for whatever it does. I'm betting that this relay is supposed to be mounted on the radiator mount/firewall (like yours), but my dealer missed that (because you may recall, my machine wasn't set-up well from the dealer back in 2014). Also, I forgot to share that my ignition switch doesn't have continuity on the heating side (for forgot what pin it is, but without pouring through the wiring diagram to puzzle out where everything goes, I presumed went to the glow plugs, but my glow plug light comes on at the dash and blinks off when it times out--which doesn't mean that the glow plugs are working but the ECU must think they are working which didn't make sense). Anyway, without being able to pull codes (Man I support the Right to Work movement!) I'm going to order a keyed starter switch, and oddly enough, a Cub Cadet temperature relay.

I hate throwing parts at things to fix things when I lack to resources to properly diagnose mystery problems (which may wind up being mouse damage since neither my headlights nor horn is working now either).

Edit 2: Threepoint wrote:

...the dealer's tech noticed that the fuse to the brake light circuit was blown. He replaced, but it blew again. After more investigation, he discovered that a wire in the right rear brake light housing had chaffed its insulation and was grounding out. Once he taped that up, the fuse held, and the tractor started right up!!

So here's what we learned from all this: On the NX series, the tractor's brake light circuit must be fully operational in order to signal the ECU's terminal No. 237 ("starter relay") to complete the starter relay's primary (control) circuit. What was throwing me off is that the parking brake light on the dash is not part of the regular brake light circuit. So, even though the parking brake was firmly on and the indicator light on the dash illuminated, the ECU still thought the safety condition had not been satisfied and would not allow the tractor to start.

I'm going to look into this first as I think the rear brake lights are out and right before this I replaced a burned out brake light bulb. The issue is minor so it was on my ignore list until I'd solved the rest of the world's problems. Thanks for the tip.

Meanwhile, I found the same relay (30A 4-pin parallel SPST, harness mount) on Amazon for less than $7.00 with free shipping LOL (https://amzn.to/3yXXDUA ). Since I need a single-sided key switch PN T5515-75172, I was tempted to throw in any 5-pin, four-position garden tractor switch since they all work the same way but those things are just as expensive as the real Kioti switch and aren't potted!

 

[MinnesotaEric]

The wind in snow makes everything more complex. If I remember right the cab NX have 4 relays above the radiator. 1 4pin 70-80 amp glow plug. 3 5 pin 20 amp. 1 for cab stuff(no nothing about that one), 1 for ecm, fuel shut off and air shut off and then the last one is for starting. I’ve seen a picture with them labeled but I can’t remember where. Try 5.7 in the shop manual. Or post 6 on this thread….

NX5010 Trouble with Safety Switches

Not my first tractor or Kioti, but this NX5010 Cab (manual) is new (less than 50 hrs). Hopped in after a few days off of the tractor and found that the key would not engage the starter. Various troubleshooting has the issue nailed down to one of the safety relays not allowing for start. - If I...

www.tractorbynet.com

There we go: hunting down the no start, I know my starter switch is flakey since it failed continuity testing. However, a post in that thread got me going. For diagnosing the no start, the page numbers for testing the starter relay are 12-56 to 12-58 (or for those printing, pp. 730-32).

Thank you!

BTW, it is snowing outside and I need to plow but I'm not going to try without an operating fuel heater.

 

[PMJG207]

As for the fuel heater I’m not sure about that as I don’t have one. Been wondering if I should get the kit. Generally the ULSD fuel we get here after the first of NOV has the anti gel in it and is good for down to -10ish. That being said I did have to use the salamander heater and a tarp once to ungel the fuel system when I left untreated summer blend in it. If you have a spare 5pin I would try swapping for the start.

 

[Threepoint]

Eric, attached is a pic of the relays on my radiator support (which I incorrectly referred to yesterday as a firewall before I actually popped the hood to look again today!)

The start relay is the blue one, second from the right. It is 30/20A, not 70A (as I also incorrectly said yesterday without actually looking again). Back when I had the mystery starting problem that I posted about in the linked thread, I tested all of the relays shown.

I've also attached pdfs of pages 730 and 731 of the shop manual I have. They describe the relays and give the testing procedure.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

We got another 24" of snow and I had to pull my truck out of a ditch and run a friend to the airport so I haven't had a chance to mess with my tractor. The relay I ordered showed up. I'm still waiting for the new key switch but one that shows up, I'll be off to the races unless it stays -20 below which is what they're saying we're getting for the next week.

At any rate, I'll report what I find out thanks for the tips!

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Update: Today the correct part number key switch showed up. I was expecting that it takes a single-sided key like my NX6010 doors and OEM switch takes, but it takes the double-sided key. My parts book doesn't even list a part number for a key, let alone the double-sided key. I'm hoping This double-sided key on eBay is the right double-sided key so that I can exercise the new switch, as well as use that double-sided key to remove the lock cylinder in the new switch.

In the meantime, I popped out the lock cylinder in my OEM key switch so I can swap lock cylinders between the switches so that my original key works in the new switch as well as both doors on my cab.

All to say I still have not been able to do jack because now I'm missing the right key to exercise the new switch. More snow is on the way. Sigh.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

A little sidebar for those of us with single-sided Kioti keyed tractors and double-sided keyed Kioti tractors in the hopes of saving somebody else uncertainty and anguish:

So I received what looks like the universal double-sided Kioti key which fit into the new lock cylinder but couldn't turn the lock cylinder (facepalm)!

After fiddling with the ill-fitting, fitting key I was able to use a 1/16" roll pin drift and pull the double-sided lock cylinder out even though my new double-sided key couldn't turn the lock. Sweet.

I tried popping into the new switch my old single-sided key cylinder so one key would start the machine as well as work the locks on my doors except the single-sided key cylinder would not fit. Understand that the OEM single-sided lock housing looks just like the double-sided lock housing and so I compared the lock cylinders themselves together.

As it turns out, the new, double-siding lock tapers just a bit at the end that goes in first in comparison with the original single-siding lock cylinder. Looking down the new switch's empty lock-cylinder hole, I could see what looked like a plastic-rubberish bushing. Twenty minutes of picking at that rubber/plastic shim thingy and I'd gotten enough of it ripped out so that the original single-sided lock cylinder fit properly, locked in, and easily exercised the new switch.

Still way too cold to go outside and fix anything.

 

[Threepoint]

Eric, I doubt the weather's warmed up much, but were you able to get the new switch installed and get back to plowing?

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Eric, I doubt the weather's warmed up much, but were you able to get the new switch installed and get back to plowing?

Funny you ask as just yesterday it warmed up to 30°F.

I got the new key switch in and observed for the first time that two pins of the five pins on the harness side have been running hot (likely caused by the failing switch). I snuck needle-nose pliers into the connector and gave those two pins a slight tweak in the hopes that the blade connectors would make better contact.

Still no start off of the key.

Checked all of the fuses that they were good.

Still no start off of the key.

Flip-flopped the seventy amp fuses under the hood (wasn't thinking that was it, but why not, it was easy to do).

Still no start off of the key.

Confirmed fuel heater function to work.

Still no start off of the key.

Yanked off the dash cowling to get at the brake switch which is normally open and closed on brake application and temporarily jumped the switch.

Still no start off of the key.

Then I considered the chain of events the day it broke:

I was plowing my easement and the engine stopped. I assumed gelled fuel as the engine sputtered, the ECU light came on, and then the engine slowly died. I was able to start the engine again and it idled. Since I was only 300 yards away from my garage, I picked up the plow and drove through the 20" or more snowdrifts trying to nurse the tractor back to my garage. The engine stalled any number of times in 50 yards and I restarted it and got it closer to my garage until the engine suddenly stopped starting on the key. I went and got a remote starter, got the engine running with that, lifted the loader up all the way, and popped in a loader lock on one of the lift cylinders before the now cooling off engine died again. With more fiddling around I confirmed that I had gelled the fuel that I had purchased on December 3rd (which subsequently I learned that my local gas station did not have the winter blend at the time—a thing that other people are now warning me about from that particular operator).

So right now key on with a remote starter, I'm off to the races. The ECU is behind a paywall so I cannot simply plug in a scan tool and find out what the ECU is not seeing to trigger the starter circuit and I never did test the ground or power sides of the brake switch to look for that potential brake fault mentioned from rubbing wires, but I'm pretty sure that my fault is something pretty stupid.

My working theory, for now, is that snow got compacted on top of my skid plate and knocked a neutral or PTO safety switch off and since it is still cold out, and the undercarriage of my tractor is an icy winter wonderland, I'm going to let puzzling out what is really wrong buck until spring.

Life without a shop.