Any pricing yet on the new E tractors?

[edgarrian]

What is the intended purpose of a pickup truck? Is it for farm work? Towing a travel trailer? Towing a work trailer? Hauling stuff from Home Depot? Etc etc... There's a million uses for a pickup. Some of them lend themselves to EV pickups, and some don't. Purchase accordingly.

They make REALLY good contractor work trucks, for example. No need for a generator any more. Not so good for hauling a big bulky travel trailer due to the effect that has on the range regardless of the powertrain. I do hope that Tesla et al make it easier to charge quickly without dropping a trailer so that it's more feasible to pull a travel trailer. The extra battery you can get in the CyberTruck at least takes care of the range issue while towing to some extent.

You're right that the high number of people who use them as grocery getters are missing the point entirely.



No, not really. Fuel cost is far lower, *if* you can charge at home. Not so for apartment dwellers or anyone in the city who has to park on the street. However, when it comes to tractors I think the proportion of maintenance cost compared to fuel cost is far different than EVs. I've probably put 5x as much money into maintenance on my tractor this year as I have fuel.



That has more to do with Hertz renting their EVs to Uber drivers who beat the living crap out of them than anything inherently expensive about EVs.



Some people use them that way. I bet there's probably some people driving Maseratis that go through $6k worth of tires in a year too...

They have LOTS of torque, and I do know of plenty of people who drive performance-model Teslas and punch it at every light and don't even get 10k out of their tires. On the other hand, My Tesla has 55,000 miles on it and I'm still on factory rubber.



And what happens if you get water in a tank of diesel? Sounds like your trucks were not well designed, or maybe not well maintained.

Considering combustion engines, particularly diesels, should also be plugged in while parked in super cold climates, it doesn't seem like there's much difference between those and EVs. If you're not using it, it should be plugged in.



Yes - If you want to save money on fuel with an EV, you need to be able to charge at home. The vast majority of the convenience from having one results from that as well. At this point, I would not drive an EV if I had to use only public chargers.



If anything, this proves that FUD works. I wish I could sell 'em for that, since I have two Tesla branded chargers and at least three others lying around. My Tesla came with a mobile charger for free, if I plug it into the NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage it charges my car as fast as the car will charge at anything other than a Supercharger.

Some OEMs still include a basic 120V charger for free. Tesla no longer includes one, they give you a few hundred bucks toward the purchase of whatever style charger you want when you buy a new car. The permanently installed "wall charger" costs $475, and the mobile charger you can take with you costs $230.



Very good, but you missed an important one: Driving style. EVs have a ton of torque, but that doesn't mean you have to use all of it all the time. Like I said, I'm still on factory rubber at 55,000 miles because I only feel the need to punch it occasionally, and I drive gentler the rest of the time.

Of course, this won't have any bearing at all on EV tractors.



EV sales increased over 30% in 2023. The only trouble with inventory is at legacy OEMs, and is likely temporary. It's just that Tesla is kicking everyone else's ass at the moment. The top selling vehicle WORLDWIDE for 2023 was the Tesla Model Y.

I expect that in the 2025-2026 timeframe the others will start selling better again as they adopt the NACS plug and gain access to Tesla's Supercharger network. That is a HUGE competitive advantage for Tesla right now. As other automakers improve their products and their customers can road trip easily in their EVs, their sales should pick up again.



No, it's not reenacted, but the incentive program is an absolute mess because... Well, our government is an absolute mess and many competing interests each wanted their piece of the pie. So there's a fairly complex formula of how much of the car, its parts, the battery, etc has to be produced in the US, whether or not the companies that produce those parts have union labor, etc. so basically the IRS was charged with figuring out what models at what prices are eligible for what incentives, and so things are even changing quarter to quarter, model to model, and it's just a giant CF.



They really don't. EVs have reached critical mass, and in 2023 they supposedly reached parity with ICE vehicles in terms of production cost. I kind of think they did it because the original incentive program was poorly written and had effectively become a DISincentive program and the only way they could think of to rectify that was to make a new program... I hope they let it expire and die whenever it's scheduled to, if not kill it earlier.



There are incentives, but they're different. They fit in with the same incentives that companies can get for natural gas, E85 or other alternative fuel vehicles. Mean Green showed some info on their web site about it at one point. I don't know as much about those incentives though.

The car rental company dumped the 20k EVs bc they are in fact to expensive to keep on the road. It doesn't matter if its an uber driver which I highly doubt b/c there is no money in renting a car to just then uber in it. People who rent cars aren't beating the crap out of them. I think for the most part people rent cars and drive them like normal. Right now EVs are insanely expensive to work on. And the obvious tire wear. Add in charging stations costs. People keep thinking that charging at home is gonna stay cheap. Its not. My power rates are jumping 10% for each year for the next 2 years. As more people switch to EVs, heat pumps, and so on. The more demand for electricity. Prices will increase Green energy is not keeping them down. Its making them go up. You seem to think EVS are cheaper than ice. I dont think so at all. If they were then sales would be through the roof for anything EV. Its not. Honestly its a poor decision to purchase if you live in an apartment or rent a home.

EV sales (Tesla) will continue its sales increases. But I dont see others doing so well. They are losing money for everyone of them sold right now thats not a Tesla. It took Tesla 13 years to become profitable. The legacy manufactures cannot survive that long without profit. Mandates is what will keep their heads above water. Even the Head of Loans at the Department of Energy is on record saying that. Its so obvious at this point

 

[Williy]

I seen some place that they say there are 9
or 12 things that the ev dealers are not telling
the general public also seen $60,000 repair
bill for an ev and another one at $10,000 and
its a small cheap ev

willy

 

[macindude]

What about years.
How many years do EV batteries last ???

Indefinite.

Some one has bee drinking the EV kool aid

No, I have been experiencing EV ownership firsthand for nearly a decade, and I've been getting told how awful it is by people the entire time.

I don't drive an EV for environmental reasons. I drive an EV because my first was a plug-in hybrid (Ford Fusion Energi) that I got on a whim because they were selling them cheaper than regular ones so I figured why not give it a try. I quickly discovered that electric driving is WAY nicer.

So no, I'm not "drinking the EV kool aid" I am sharing what I have learned over the course of 9+ years of personal experience, researching the arguments myself, and contacts I have developed in the EV community.

The car rental company dumped the 20k EVs bc they are in fact to expensive to keep on the road. It doesn't matter if its an uber driver which I highly doubt b/c there is no money in renting a car to just then uber in it.

Frankly, there's no money in Uber in the first place, but that doesn't stop tens of thousands of people from doing it. And you can doubt all you want, but Uber and Hertz have had a program in place specifically for people to rent Teslas from Hertz to do Uber in. https://www.uber.com/us/en/drive/vehicle-solutions/hertz/tesla/

You seem to think EVS are cheaper than ice. I dont think so at all. If they were then sales would be through the roof for anything EV. Its not.

My wife's car costs seven times per mile what my Tesla costs for fuel. I've been casually shopping for a replacement for her, and base price of a Model Y is in the ballpark of what we would spend on a new ICE replacement. While 10 years ago the purchase price of an EV was significantly higher than ICE, in 2023 they reached parity.

Honestly its a poor decision to purchase if you live in an apartment or rent a home.

Agreed, for the most part. Apartments with assigned parking and power available are fine. Rental homes are fine too in most cases. It's not about whether you own or rent, it's about whether you can charge sufficiently to meet your driving needs. There are plenty of older homes in cities where parking is on the street as well, and as things are today those are the wrong people to own EVs as well.

EV sales (Tesla) will continue its sales increases. But I dont see others doing so well. They are losing money for everyone of them sold right now thats not a Tesla. It took Tesla 13 years to become profitable. The legacy manufactures cannot survive that long without profit.

It won't take legacy manufacturers that long. They already know how to build cars really well, and Tesla kinda just figured that out right before they became profitable. Tesla also did not have any existing ICE sales for revenue during the process. I think some of the legacies are going to learn some hard lessons just like Tesla did over the years, but they have a lot more R&D money available, a lot more existing know-how, and they have other products that will continue to keep them profitable even with the increased R&D spend to develop good electric drivetrains.

I do think that not every one of them is going to come out of this alive, though. In particular, Stellantis (Chrysler) is SO far behind the curve that it's going to be a challenge for them. Ford and GM, however, have been building electrified vehicles for at least a decade already and they'll be profitable on their EVs within the next couple of years if they're not already. Good timing, too, as their volume will likely increase once they've got the NACS charging ports.

I seen some place that they say there are 9
or 12 things that the ev dealers are not telling
the general public also seen $60,000 repair
bill for an ev and another one at $10,000 and
its a small cheap ev

The only $60K repair bill I've seen turned out to be a fake, even though it had the name of a real dealer on it.

There are also some real ones that are what I call "f you pricing" where they charge 3x what it should cost, because they simply don't want to work on EVs.

 

[DK35vince]

Indefinite

A quick search shows 12-15 years moderate climate.
Less for extreme climate

How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last? | Edmunds

Just like gas-powered cars, an electric car's mechanical components can wear down over time, and that includes the battery. Here's how long you can expect your EV battery to last and how you can make it last longer.

www.edmunds.com

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last#:~:text=Many%20experts%20peg%20the%20lifespan%20of%20an%20EV,you%20more%2C%20and%20some%20states%20require%20longer%20coverage.

Every car, truck and tractor we own is older than the life expectancy of an EV battery

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Back on topic. Anyone have a price? Seems like a lot of press last fall, and now crickets.

 

[macindude]

A quick search shows 12-15 years moderate climate.
Less for extreme climate

How Long Do Electric Car Batteries Last? | Edmunds

Just like gas-powered cars, an electric car's mechanical components can wear down over time, and that includes the battery. Here's how long you can expect your EV battery to last and how you can make it last longer.

www.edmunds.com

https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/advice/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last#:~:text=Many%20experts%20peg%20the%20lifespan%20of%20an%20EV,you%20more%2C%20and%20some%20states%20require%20longer%20coverage.

Every car, truck and tractor we own is older than the life expectancy of an EV battery

But, if you read carefully, they never say anything definitive. They say "MAY last 12-15 years." There aren't any BEVs today that have even been on the road that long.

They also never define what they mean by "last". There are two things that can happen to EV (or any similar) batteries:

1) They can outright fail. This is really only caused by particular cells failing, and if you replace those cells, you're good to go. Because EVs are still relatively young there isn't a huge repair industry around the batteries yet, but there are a few shops that can repair an EV battery. Also, all of the EVs I'm aware of have modular batteries so even if you can't find a shop that has the expertise to replace individual cells, you should be able to replace modules.

2) They can degrade to the point that they're no longer useful *for you*. This is probably a bigger deal because it means that the entire battery would need to be replaced. However, there is still value in a "dead" battery for other applications such as fixed storage, where power density requirements aren't as stringent as they are in a vehicle, so you should be able to trade in the existing battery when you purchase a new one. In addition, you can still sell the vehicle to someone whose range requirements aren't as high as yours.

I would also expect that we'll see some new technologies that can help repair batteries. For example, the good old automotive lead-acid batteries we've had for a long time "last" 3-4 years most of the time. Sulfates build up on the plates and lower the capacity of the battery, and they're cheap enough that we generally just buy another one and throw it in. But, you can get things like Battery Minders now. They aren't simple trickle chargers, they include a component of AC that breaks up those solid sulfate deposits inside the battery. I use them on my airplane, because its batteries are $500+ each and there's two of them, so the Battery Minder is more cost effective. The two batteries I have right now are 10 and 17 years old, and work fine even in the cold (they are required to pass an annual capacity check as well). I expect that at some point, we'll see companies introducing similar products that can bring Lithium Ion cells back to life.

Also, while that article is mostly good, some things in it are already out of date. Fast charging and charging cycles, for example, aren't as big of a deal as was originally thought. There are newer battery chemistries that aren't affected by being charged to 100%, such as the Lithium-Iron-Phosphate pack on my car. As with any technology, things are getting better pretty fast.

All in all, I'm not particularly concerned about it. I'm on my fifth electrified vehicle now - The first two I leased because I was at least a little fearful of the pace the tech was changing as well as possible longer term issues with batteries. Third one was a plug-in hybrid where the engine died, fourth was a Chevy Bolt that got recalled. I expect I'll be driving my Tesla for a loooooooong time, and I really don't have any concerns about the battery.