Any pricing yet on the new E tractors?

[macindude]

I am not clear about how the cost of EV devices should be calculated. There are too many unanswered questions about ev cars, trucks and tractors. For example.
If you purchase an ev vehicle (or tractor) which has a battery expected to last 8 years, what is it's resale value after 7 or 8 years. What is the value of its resale or does it take a $20K battery investment to sell or trade it.

Find me a single EV that has a battery that's only expected to last 8 years, and I'll tell ya. The idea of a required replacement is largely untrue.

Anyone who has been involved with owning an aircraft understands the cost of aircraft engine overhaul. There is a cost for every hour of operation. Looks like the cost of replacing a battery should be added every year. Then, how much will batteries cost in 8 years? All unanswered questions.

With airplanes, the Time Between Overhauls is published and must be adhered to by commercial operators, but private individuals and companies can run their engines as long as they see fit. Generally, an aircraft valuation assumes a mid-time engine (1000 hours on a 2000 hour TBO) and each hour above or below that is credited on the amount you get when you divide the overhaul cost by the number of hours to TBO ($50,000/2000 hours = $25/hr for example). The overhaul cost used here is generally the cost paid to the overhaul shop, and does not include the costs of removal, reinstallation, transportation, etc.

What you really see is more of an S curve, with planes that have engines in the first quarter of their life being worth close to what a plane with a zero time engine would be, and planes that are approaching TBO being worth what a plane with a fully run-out engine is worth. I would expect that's probably what you would see if there was any expectation at all that batteries would just time out and require a complete replacement.

Is it really equal too or lower operating cost than diesel - After we find that road taxes are added to the electric recharging costs.

Road taxes added to electric costs?!? Where are you getting that? Nobody's gonna vote for anyone that makes them pay road taxes to keep the lights on in their houses. Most states are simply adding EV surcharges to registration fees for electric vehicles to make up for losses in gas tax revenue.

As for operating costs, they will likely be significantly lower even if the fuel cost remains the same due to the large reduction in moving parts count and far less vibration resulting in less normal wear and tear.

Seems to me a commercial operation which can afford several ev tractors and commercial or volume charging rates - and several extra exchange batteries may do well.

Yes. This is the market Mean Green has aimed themselves at. Their stuff can be purchased with 1 onboard battery for simpler homeowner uses, or it can be purchased with 3 onboard batteries and a canopy solar panel for 8+ hour runtime.

But then, I also think Lithium batteries are on their way out and soon will not even be available for evs.

I sure hope so... A solution that would put these replacement tales to rest and be fully rechargeable in a few minutes would be a game changer. But, Lithium is still a very good solution until that magical product comes along. I'm less optimistic than you about that happening any time soon. I've been hearing about "solid state batteries" and supercapacitors and graphite batteries and stuff for years, and none of it has borne any fruit yet.

From the picture it looks like the battery is under the cab, behind the cab steps. With an extra 2,500 of weight I don't think the battery can be swapped. And there is no mention of that on the NH website. Even the small Solis 25HP electric tractor has a large battery that cannot be swapped out.

No battery that contains a useful amount of energy for a tractor is going to be able to be swapped by hand. This isn't your E-Go leaf blower. A quick Google search says that Tesla batteries currently have an energy density of around 269 Wh/kg, so even a SCUT sized tractor that can run at full power for 8 hours would have a battery weighing over 1200 pounds.

That's why I think the answer in a tractor is to make a battery the tractor can pick up. Imagine an electric JD 1025R that has a weight bucket that's really a battery and can be picked up by the JDQA, the quick hitch that they use for snowblowers etc, and the 3 point. Then you can just use it as a counterweight no matter what you're doing so that the weight is useful. You would also have a battery that is part of the tractor that you can use without the "battery bucket".

Anyone see on the news last week where 10 Teslas had to be towed away because it was too cold for the batteries to be able to take a charge? Think what would happen if all ICE's were done away with and replaced with EV's. Snow removal, emergency vehicles, tractors, everything. Can you imagine the chaos when none of this equipment will work because you can't charge a battery? People in the north know this isn't a once in a hundred years event. It happens often. Not trying to hijack a thread here, but just something to think about.

And for some reason in Milwaukee, where it was even colder, we didn't seem to have this problem. I think I addressed this already above.

Like I always used to say, just picture a rush hour traffic jamb in the Lincoln Tunnel or on the GW Bridge. It would only take a couple dead EV’s to cause a horrific traffic jamb.
With heaters in cars not working in the freezing cold…..well….as my dad used to say
”That ain’t good!”

It ain’t like an ICE vehicle where you can walk up and put a couple gallons in the tank and off ya go.

That's one of those things I frequently hear from FUDsters, who don't realize that an EV will last longer than an ICEV in a winter traffic jam scenario, not to mention the EV is much more likely to have a fuller "tank" since we leave the house full every day.

Ive heard some dealers won't even accept them on a trade.

A Bolt with a battery recall, no. A dealer that wouldn't accept a perfectly good EV otherwise is an idiot. They generally ship all of the trades off to auction anyway so I'm not sure why they'd care.

Ford recently announced its production cut of the lightning due to the lack of sales and lets be honest here as well. Performance was an issue when using the truck for its intended purpose

I would guess that the reason the Lightning is experiencing lackluster sales right now is that the Tesla Cybertruck just began shipping and people wanted to wait and see how that would turn out.

The Lightning is actually a great truck, according to a couple of people I know who have them.

When it comes to equipment thats Electric. I remain very skeptical. I think a lot of them claim run times of 4 hours. Which to me isn't all that long. There are days where Ill use mine 8 to 10 hours with a run time of at least 6 hrs. Sometimes even as a homeowner you need to put in a long weekend to get **** done. Not sure I would like short run times. Commercially these dont even make sense. Short run times as they come, that would change the harder you have to work the equipment, frigid temps, and mostly there isn't a place to charge the equipment on a job site.

Yeah, there absolutely needs to be a way to add/swap aux batteries, and the use case for electric needs to be there. Electric for the sake of being electric is dumb.

If these electric tractors only have a 4 hour run time you
would need 2 or 3 of them so you could work 10- - 12
hours a day. With the capacity of the batteries for the
electric tractor it would take a long time to charge???

Yet again... Gotta have a way to add/swap an extra battery and keep running while you have a spare charging up. As a homeowner I wouldn't mind going without, but any sort of commercial operation or farm needs all-day runtime and the ability to continue running when necessary. A surprise end to a day can be extremely bad for a farm!

 

[Hay Dude]

 

[edgarrian]

Find me a single EV that has a battery that's only expected to last 8 years, and I'll tell ya. The idea of a required replacement is largely untrue.



With airplanes, the Time Between Overhauls is published and must be adhered to by commercial operators, but private individuals and companies can run their engines as long as they see fit. Generally, an aircraft valuation assumes a mid-time engine (1000 hours on a 2000 hour TBO) and each hour above or below that is credited on the amount you get when you divide the overhaul cost by the number of hours to TBO ($50,000/2000 hours = $25/hr for example). The overhaul cost used here is generally the cost paid to the overhaul shop, and does not include the costs of removal, reinstallation, transportation, etc.

What you really see is more of an S curve, with planes that have engines in the first quarter of their life being worth close to what a plane with a zero time engine would be, and planes that are approaching TBO being worth what a plane with a fully run-out engine is worth. I would expect that's probably what you would see if there was any expectation at all that batteries would just time out and require a complete replacement.



Road taxes added to electric costs?!? Where are you getting that? Nobody's gonna vote for anyone that makes them pay road taxes to keep the lights on in their houses. Most states are simply adding EV surcharges to registration fees for electric vehicles to make up for losses in gas tax revenue.

As for operating costs, they will likely be significantly lower even if the fuel cost remains the same due to the large reduction in moving parts count and far less vibration resulting in less normal wear and tear.



Yes. This is the market Mean Green has aimed themselves at. Their stuff can be purchased with 1 onboard battery for simpler homeowner uses, or it can be purchased with 3 onboard batteries and a canopy solar panel for 8+ hour runtime.



I sure hope so... A solution that would put these replacement tales to rest and be fully rechargeable in a few minutes would be a game changer. But, Lithium is still a very good solution until that magical product comes along. I'm less optimistic than you about that happening any time soon. I've been hearing about "solid state batteries" and supercapacitors and graphite batteries and stuff for years, and none of it has borne any fruit yet.



No battery that contains a useful amount of energy for a tractor is going to be able to be swapped by hand. This isn't your E-Go leaf blower. A quick Google search says that Tesla batteries currently have an energy density of around 269 Wh/kg, so even a SCUT sized tractor that can run at full power for 8 hours would have a battery weighing over 1200 pounds.

That's why I think the answer in a tractor is to make a battery the tractor can pick up. Imagine an electric JD 1025R that has a weight bucket that's really a battery and can be picked up by the JDQA, the quick hitch that they use for snowblowers etc, and the 3 point. Then you can just use it as a counterweight no matter what you're doing so that the weight is useful. You would also have a battery that is part of the tractor that you can use without the "battery bucket".



And for some reason in Milwaukee, where it was even colder, we didn't seem to have this problem. I think I addressed this already above.



That's one of those things I frequently hear from FUDsters, who don't realize that an EV will last longer than an ICEV in a winter traffic jam scenario, not to mention the EV is much more likely to have a fuller "tank" since we leave the house full every day.



A Bolt with a battery recall, no. A dealer that wouldn't accept a perfectly good EV otherwise is an idiot. They generally ship all of the trades off to auction anyway so I'm not sure why they'd care.



I would guess that the reason the Lightning is experiencing lackluster sales right now is that the Tesla Cybertruck just began shipping and people wanted to wait and see how that would turn out.

The Lightning is actually a great truck, according to a couple of people I know who have them.



Yeah, there absolutely needs to be a way to add/swap aux batteries, and the use case for electric needs to be there. Electric for the sake of being electric is dumb.



Yet again... Gotta have a way to add/swap an extra battery and keep running while you have a spare charging up. As a homeowner I wouldn't mind going without, but any sort of commercial operation or farm needs all-day runtime and the ability to continue running when necessary. A surprise end to a day can be extremely bad for a farm!

Well the ones I know that ended up with a lightning were unimpressed with its functionality as pickup truck. I believe people that use them for their intended purpose. Will be disappointed. IF your like 75% of americans who drive a pickup for the sake of owning one. Then yes probably not a big deal.

I love how maintnece costs seems to be the reason why people want you to get EVs. Maintenance costs on an ICE is minimal. Its really a dumb reason to switch from ICE to EV. There is a reason why a recent car rental company dumped 20,000 EVs. They are to expensive to keep on the road. You know what most people dont know about EV's. The fact that an EV goes through tires like you never seen before. Your getting new tires every 10,000 miles. For some people that would be around 6,000 a year just for tires. There is zero savings with an EV. I won't risk a known cost with an ICE and hope for the best with an EV.. Battery replacement regardless is entirely to high. Just like with ICE and the swapping out a motor prematurely. That happens with EV batteries as well. Who really wants to risk that? The tire wear is outrageous. EV's have along way to go.

 

[Paystar]

Well the ones I know that ended up with a lightning were unimpressed with its functionality as pickup truck. I believe people that use them for their intended purpose. Will be disappointed. IF your like 75% of americans who drive a pickup for the sake of owning one. Then yes probably not a big deal.

I love how maintnece costs seems to be the reason why people want you to get EVs. Maintenance costs on an ICE is minimal. Its really a dumb reason to switch from ICE to EV. There is a reason why a recent car rental company dumped 20,000 EVs. They are to expensive to keep on the road. You know what most people dont know about EV's. The fact that an EV goes through tires like you never seen before. Your getting new tires every 10,000 miles. For some people that would be around 6,000 a year just for tires. There is zero savings with an EV. I won't risk a known cost with an ICE and hope for the best with an EV.. Battery replacement regardless is entirely to high. Just like with ICE and the swapping out a motor prematurely. That happens with EV batteries as well. Who really wants to risk that? The tire wear is outrageous. EV's have along way to go.

Like I have mentioned before, our mine tried electric trucks. Great for first while underground, but as soon as moisture got in to them, or as soon as they had to park them on surface in the winter.....they are all gone and we are back to diesel Toyota's and Kubota RTV's. So that's not much of a "sales pitch" to me to go buy an EV, LOL

Maybe if I lived somewhere where it is no shirt and swimming weather all year round, but that isn't here where it goes down to minus 40.

 

[edgarrian]

Like I have mentioned before, our mine tried electric trucks. Great for first while underground, but as soon as moisture got in to them, or as soon as they had to park them on surface in the winter.....they are all gone and we are back to diesel Toyota's and Kubota RTV's. So that's not much of a "sales pitch" to me to go buy an EV, LOL

Maybe if I lived somewhere where it is no shirt and swimming weather all year round, but that isn't here where it goes down to minus 40.

I mean my wife and i have kicked around getting an EV for her next car but I have always been apprehensive. A guy at work took his car to the dealer for some work. They have him a loaner vehicle. It was an EV. He had to charge at one of the tesla charging stations and it was 38 dollars. Comparable to a gas station fillip really. I believe the tesla chargers are around 10k. Plus the expense of the car. Then you have the premature wear of tires most likely do to the weight of the vehicles. They are expensive to get worked on. I just dont see ourselves adopting one anytime soon. Im 47 and i may never do it. Unless of course its forced or another word mandated.

 

[bearthebruce]

Auto EV tire wear is influenced by 3 factors:

• Weight of the vehicle
• High Wheel Torque of electric drive
• Soft compound being used by OE to reduce noise from heavy vehicle

I work for company that designs and builds diagnostic tools for VAG vehicles. The tire wear for EVs is real. Not sure of the replacement at 10k but replacement does occur before the average on lighter ICE cars. Do search the net for articles on EV tire wear.

EV OEs are seeing inventories increase as fewer are adopting the EV right now. US Government is handing out your tax money to keep the incentives going to buy. VW is once again offering $7500 tax credit incentives to buy their EVs. Those credits had ended in 2023 but have now be reenacted in 2024... ????

I know that government incentives are often used to bring new innovations to market. I resent most of them because I believe that if ideas are so innovative, than the market will show them to be a good value. Why then does the US government have to continue the $7500 distribution to make EVs a good deal?

In the tractor world, I have not heard of incentives... Why is that?

 

[macindude]

Well the ones I know that ended up with a lightning were unimpressed with its functionality as pickup truck. I believe people that use them for their intended purpose. Will be disappointed. IF your like 75% of americans who drive a pickup for the sake of owning one. Then yes probably not a big deal.

What is the intended purpose of a pickup truck? Is it for farm work? Towing a travel trailer? Towing a work trailer? Hauling stuff from Home Depot? Etc etc... There's a million uses for a pickup. Some of them lend themselves to EV pickups, and some don't. Purchase accordingly.

They make REALLY good contractor work trucks, for example. No need for a generator any more. Not so good for hauling a big bulky travel trailer due to the effect that has on the range regardless of the powertrain. I do hope that Tesla et al make it easier to charge quickly without dropping a trailer so that it's more feasible to pull a travel trailer. The extra battery you can get in the CyberTruck at least takes care of the range issue while towing to some extent.

You're right that the high number of people who use them as grocery getters are missing the point entirely.

I love how maintnece costs seems to be the reason why people want you to get EVs.

No, not really. Fuel cost is far lower, *if* you can charge at home. Not so for apartment dwellers or anyone in the city who has to park on the street. However, when it comes to tractors I think the proportion of maintenance cost compared to fuel cost is far different than EVs. I've probably put 5x as much money into maintenance on my tractor this year as I have fuel.

There is a reason why a recent car rental company dumped 20,000 EVs. They are to expensive to keep on the road.

That has more to do with Hertz renting their EVs to Uber drivers who beat the living crap out of them than anything inherently expensive about EVs.

You know what most people dont know about EV's. The fact that an EV goes through tires like you never seen before. Your getting new tires every 10,000 miles. For some people that would be around 6,000 a year just for tires.

Some people use them that way. I bet there's probably some people driving Maseratis that go through $6k worth of tires in a year too...

They have LOTS of torque, and I do know of plenty of people who drive performance-model Teslas and punch it at every light and don't even get 10k out of their tires. On the other hand, My Tesla has 55,000 miles on it and I'm still on factory rubber.

Like I have mentioned before, our mine tried electric trucks. Great for first while underground, but as soon as moisture got in to them, or as soon as they had to park them on surface in the winter.....they are all gone and we are back to diesel Toyota's and Kubota RTV's. So that's not much of a "sales pitch" to me to go buy an EV, LOL

Maybe if I lived somewhere where it is no shirt and swimming weather all year round, but that isn't here where it goes down to minus 40.

And what happens if you get water in a tank of diesel? Sounds like your trucks were not well designed, or maybe not well maintained.

Considering combustion engines, particularly diesels, should also be plugged in while parked in super cold climates, it doesn't seem like there's much difference between those and EVs. If you're not using it, it should be plugged in.

I mean my wife and i have kicked around getting an EV for her next car but I have always been apprehensive. A guy at work took his car to the dealer for some work. They have him a loaner vehicle. It was an EV. He had to charge at one of the tesla charging stations and it was 38 dollars. Comparable to a gas station fillip really.

Yes - If you want to save money on fuel with an EV, you need to be able to charge at home. The vast majority of the convenience from having one results from that as well. At this point, I would not drive an EV if I had to use only public chargers.

I believe the tesla chargers are around 10k. Plus the expense of the car.

If anything, this proves that FUD works. I wish I could sell 'em for that, since I have two Tesla branded chargers and at least three others lying around. My Tesla came with a mobile charger for free, if I plug it into the NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage it charges my car as fast as the car will charge at anything other than a Supercharger.

Some OEMs still include a basic 120V charger for free. Tesla no longer includes one, they give you a few hundred bucks toward the purchase of whatever style charger you want when you buy a new car. The permanently installed "wall charger" costs $475, and the mobile charger you can take with you costs $230.

Auto EV tire wear is influenced by 3 factors:

• Weight of the vehicle
• High Wheel Torque of electric drive
• Soft compound being used by OE to reduce noise from heavy vehicle

I work for company that designs and builds diagnostic tools for VAG vehicles. The tire wear for EVs is real. Not sure of the replacement at 10k but replacement does occur before the average on lighter ICE cars. Do search the net for articles on EV tire wear.

Very good, but you missed an important one: Driving style. EVs have a ton of torque, but that doesn't mean you have to use all of it all the time. Like I said, I'm still on factory rubber at 55,000 miles because I only feel the need to punch it occasionally, and I drive gentler the rest of the time.

Of course, this won't have any bearing at all on EV tractors.

EV OEs are seeing inventories increase as fewer are adopting the EV right now.

EV sales increased over 30% in 2023. The only trouble with inventory is at legacy OEMs, and is likely temporary. It's just that Tesla is kicking everyone else's ass at the moment. The top selling vehicle WORLDWIDE for 2023 was the Tesla Model Y.

I expect that in the 2025-2026 timeframe the others will start selling better again as they adopt the NACS plug and gain access to Tesla's Supercharger network. That is a HUGE competitive advantage for Tesla right now. As other automakers improve their products and their customers can road trip easily in their EVs, their sales should pick up again.

US Government is handing out your tax money to keep the incentives going to buy. VW is once again offering $7500 tax credit incentives to buy their EVs. Those credits had ended in 2023 but have now be reenacted in 2024... ????

No, it's not reenacted, but the incentive program is an absolute mess because... Well, our government is an absolute mess and many competing interests each wanted their piece of the pie. So there's a fairly complex formula of how much of the car, its parts, the battery, etc has to be produced in the US, whether or not the companies that produce those parts have union labor, etc. so basically the IRS was charged with figuring out what models at what prices are eligible for what incentives, and so things are even changing quarter to quarter, model to model, and it's just a giant CF.

I know that government incentives are often used to bring new innovations to market. I resent most of them because I believe that if ideas are so innovative, than the market will show them to be a good value. Why then does the US government have to continue the $7500 distribution to make EVs a good deal?

They really don't. EVs have reached critical mass, and in 2023 they supposedly reached parity with ICE vehicles in terms of production cost. I kind of think they did it because the original incentive program was poorly written and had effectively become a DISincentive program and the only way they could think of to rectify that was to make a new program... I hope they let it expire and die whenever it's scheduled to, if not kill it earlier.

In the tractor world, I have not heard of incentives... Why is that?

There are incentives, but they're different. They fit in with the same incentives that companies can get for natural gas, E85 or other alternative fuel vehicles. Mean Green showed some info on their web site about it at one point. I don't know as much about those incentives though.

 

[Paystar]

I'm going to predict to you all what is going to happen as far as on-road vehicles. In their attempt to save the environment by banning the sale of internal combustion LIGHT DUTY VEHICLES, every soccer mom on the block is going to have a new Superduty (because no one wants an ev) and Ford is licking their lips because now they will be selling more $110,000 Superduties than they can produce. LOL

Let the future prove me wrong, LOL

 

[Williy]

Someone said they have never seen a new battery go bad
in 6 months or less? Back in the 70's Farm Fleet in Fond du
Lac Wisconsin had a couple of pallets of batteries that were
bad and they were brand new. These EV's are shure getting
the shaft, just seen another small EV driver for a new battery
they only want $10K. I still remember about the Toyota EV
really got a shock when he got the bill for just service for the
first time $1400, could sure make a lot of oil changes on a
gas or diesel vehicle

willy

 

[ljjhouser]

​

​

Battery and Drive Unit Limited Warranty​

Macindude - You asked.

Find me a single EV that has a battery that's only expected to last 8 years, and I'll tell ya. The idea of a required replacement is largely untrue.

I guess this is what you were asking for. https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty
Don't know how long they should last, but this must be what Tesla thinks they should last.

The Battery and Drive Unit in your vehicle are covered for a period of:

Model S Model X	8 years or 150,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 Rear-Wheel Drive	8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 Long Range Model 3 Performance Model Y All-Wheel Drive Model Y Long Range Model Y Performance	8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.