Advice on repair bill....

[futuresweets10]

I know many of you have probably formed an opinion about me in the few short weeks that I have been on the board. I haven't done much to make myself look like I have half a brain:laughing: and Ive said some things in posts that make me look like an idiot. In the end, it really doesn't matter what a bunch of people on a forum think. I have learned A LOT from reading and asking questions and I am grateful for everyone's help.

I ended up taking the back hoe in yesterday to have the problem looked at by someone who knows more than I. (See this thread if you havent been following my stupidity http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/178090-getting-tired-hydraulics-another-help.html). The shop called me today and said they think they found the problem. There is one small part in both of the work port relief valves that is worn. They quoted me about 260 a piece for the replacement valves and said they can have them in the morning. The guy told me that labor would probably be about $1000, which seemed high to me. I questioned the estimated amount and he told me that they had about 4hrs in it so far and they would have more time putting it back together. Labor is $87 an hour.

After thinking about the math for a while I got kinda suspicious. I was told they pressure tested the cylinder and then after it looked good they took the work port valves out. He said the top one was PITA to get out. If it took them 4hrs to test the cylinder, get the WP valves off, and pull the WP valves apart and inspect them (which seems high in its self), how is it going to take any where near 4 to get the thing put back together. I know it would take me about 15min to put the work port valves back in because I had them out myself last week. Even if they had 2hrs in it that only 6 hrs, which is only $522.

I hope he just shot high on the estimated labor to be safe, but if I get a labor bill anywhere near $1000 Im going to have a problem with it. Am I out of line for thinking this is too high? What would you guys do?

 

[J_J]

Everything they did or want to do seems inflated. Should not take more than one hour to tear down a valve, however, they should have connected up test equipment on the machine, and tested, and if the valve showed bad, then pull it and put it on the hyd test bench and do a full test. The cost of the work port relief valve seem high, they could repair, perhaps. If you get the chance, insist on watching the repair and assembly for insurance purpose.

Have you noticed the hours quoted to do a job, but if you watched them do the actual job, it takes much less, and sometimes they do other jobs while doing yours, and charge full hours for both jobs. If you looked at the computer for the hours worked for that individual, you might see a total hours worked at around 20 or more hours. Impossible, but they pay him, and the shop. There are a lot of crooked people out there and will do anything for that almighty dollar.

I was quoted 5 hrs to remove the oil pan and replace the oil pump and intake screen on a 351 ford engine, in a van. I watched someone do that same job in less than two hours with all parts on hand.

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I know many of you have probably formed an opinion about me in the few short weeks that I have been on the board.

Love and hate, is two emotions that reflect some sort of care, ignorant people do not care at all.....I love you at the end of these threads....

I haven't done much to make myself look like I have half a brain:laughing: and Ive said some things in posts that make me look like an idiot. In the end, it really doesn't matter what a bunch of people on a forum think. I have learned A LOT from reading and asking questions and I am grateful for everyone's help.

You have been a good student

I ended up taking the back hoe in yesterday to have the problem looked at by someone who knows more than I. (See this thread if you havent been following my stupidity http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/hydraulics/178090-getting-tired-hydraulics-another-help.html).

This problem of yours have showed a lot of members/viewers how complex and difficult it can be to come to that stage where you REALLY KNOW and UNDERSTAND hydraulics....it actually takes real hydraulic classes to get the right foundation of knowledge

The shop called me today and said they think they found the problem. There is one small part in both of the work port relief valves that is worn.

Thes port relief valves were the only option left for the leakage....

They quoted me about 260 a piece for the replacement valves and said they can have them in the morning. The guy told me that labor would probably be about $1000, which seemed high to me. I questioned the estimated amount and he told me that they had about 4hrs in it so far and they would have more time putting it back together. Labor is $87 an hour.

Labor rate is OK...labor rate up to 120$ possible.....
I can see the trouble shooting take 4 hrs if you don't have the right trouble shooting skills....A good experienced trouble shooter should get into the port RV area within 30 min at the most....testing cylinder should come after the PRV test/check....but it is what it is....suppose you have to accept the 4 hrs...

After thinking about the math for a while I got kinda suspicious. I was told they pressure tested the cylinder and then after it looked good they took the work port valves out. He said the top one was PITA to get out. If it took them 4hrs to test the cylinder, get the WP valves off, and pull the WP valves apart and inspect them (which seems high in its self), how is it going to take any where near 4 to get the thing put back together. I know it would take me about 15min to put the work port valves back in because I had them out myself last week. Even if they had 2hrs in it that only 6 hrs, which is only $522.

Agree 100% with you there....good math part from you!!!

I hope he just shot high on the estimated labor to be safe, but if I get a labor bill anywhere near $1000 Im going to have a problem with it. Am I out of line for thinking this is too high? What would you guys do?

Tell him that you can order the parts (PRV cartridges) and put them back your self in 15 min....and that you can't accept a total 1000$ bill...I think they are fishing for some extra bucks

Have them to make a better more detailed quote!! They are definitely trying to cover their a***s....

 

[futuresweets10]

Everything they did or want to do seems inflated. Should not take more than one hour to tear down a valve, however, they should have connected up test equipment on the machine, and tested, and if the valve showed bad, then pull it and put it on the hyd test bench and do a full test. The cost of the work port relief valve seem high, they could repair, perhaps. If you get the chance, insist on watching the repair and assembly for insurance purpose.

Have you noticed the hours quoted to do a job, but if you watched them do the actual job, it takes much less, and sometimes they do other jobs while doing yours, and charge full hours for both jobs. If you looked at the computer for the hours worked for that individual, you might see a total hours worked at around 20 or more hours. Impossible, but they pay him, and the shop. There are a lot of crooked people out there and will do anything for that almighty dollar.

I was quoted 5 hrs to remove the oil pan and replace the oil pump and intake screen on a 351 ford engine, in a van. I watched someone do that same job in less than two hours with all parts on hand.

Well, auto mechanics go by book time and from what I can tell all heavy equipment goes by actual time. They supposedly tested the valves on the machine and that was their finding. I know first hand the actually removing the valve assembly from the machine is about an 7 hour job, but they didnt remove the assembly, just the work port valves. They claim that parts for the work port valve arent available, just the entire valve.

 

[futuresweets10]

Labor rate is OK...labor rate up to 120$ possible.....
I can see the trouble shooting take 4 hrs if you don't have the right trouble shooting skills....A good experienced trouble shooter should get into the port RV area within 30 min at the most....testing cylinder should come after the PRV test/check....but it is what it is....suppose you have to accept the 4 hrs...

I honestly think a half hour is slightly low, but 4hrs is high. I told him that I rebuilt the cylinder myself so Im guessing thats why they tested the cylinder before the work port valves. With the way the hoe is there arent really any good spots to hook gauges up to and its difficult to get lines moved to put a T in. With that said, I doubt they really put gauges on anything... I think he used the logic you did in that the work port valves were the only logical place a problem could be. I have a feeling its going to be **** dealing with them.

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I honestly think a half hour is slightly low, but 4hrs is high. I told him that I rebuilt the cylinder myself so Im guessing thats why they tested the cylinder before the work port valves. With the way the hoe is there arent really any good spots to hook gauges up to and its difficult to get lines moved to put a T in. With that said, I doubt they really put gauges on anything... I think he used the logic you did in that the work port valves were the only logical place a problem could be. I have a feeling its going to be **** dealing with them.

After all we go through, I hate to se you ripped off...I just you get all settled just now, and get some "peace" back into your life....Good Luck!!

Ps....lets know whats the result will be after the shop visit....

 

[futuresweets10]

After all we go through, I hate to se you ripped off...I just you get all settled just now, and get some "peace" back into your life....Good Luck!!

Ps....lets know whats the result will be after the shop visit....

I will definitely keep you guys updated on it.... Its the local Cat dealer, so it kinda shocks me that they would try to rip someone off.... Im going to go by in the morning and talk to them and see what they say.

 

[mmurphy]

When you get in to construction equipment sometimes it is like adding another digit to the bill!!
If you take with you everything you could learn from this project, advice, opinions, the misery, and some things you probably did not want to hear, you still may get your moneys worth. Education comes in strange ways.

 

[futuresweets10]

When you get in to construction equipment sometimes it is like adding another digit to the bill!!
If you take with you everything you could learn from this project, advice, opinions, the misery, and some things you probably did not want to hear, you still may get your moneys worth. Education comes in strange ways.

I kinda want to take that stance on it and thats the reason Im not too mad about all the money ive thrown at it trying to fix it with out actually being successful. But that shouldnt be justification for them over charging me

 

[AKKAMAAN]

I kinda want to take that stance on it and thats the reason Im not too mad about all the money ive thrown at it trying to fix it with out actually being successful. But that shouldnt be justification for them over charging me

Maybe one of the tech's from your of your CAT shop know everything about you now.....he is a member on this forum and know how "vulnerable" your are just now.........I wonder who it can be...:confused2:

Agree with mmurphy, it can be 50% up on labor cost at a heavy equipment shop, compared to the auto shop.....and that CAT users manual and tech training do cost some big $$$.....think positive.....like we say in Sweden....jajamensan....

 

[MFRED]

If you don't want a $1,000 repair bill you, need to stop them now. They quoted a price to do a job and if you didn't dispute, there is no way you can argue in the end.

Overcharging or not, if the quote was agreed upon, it is the quote. If it was $2,000 in labor when you get done, that's different.

Hope it works out & the labor charge isn't that high, but if you weren't clear up front that it was too high, I don't think you should complain.

 

[radman1]

My local CAT dealer is also much higher than the local hydraulic shop I use for valves and cylinders. My CAT dealer is probably 50% higher. My Bobcat dealer charges $95/hour. I had a cylinder from Surplus center taken to my local hydraulic shop. They took that cylinder shortened it, machined new ends, changed the rod stroke and plumbed the ports differently. The cost was about $500. I removed the old cylinder and reinstalled the new on my Toolcat. A bit of a pain to remove because the machine has to be blocked up and the boom supported in up postion to remove the cylinder. The cylinder has to come out from below the TC and the cylinder is 3.5' long. I did it by driving part way up my trailer ramps with the TC and using a high lift jack to support the boom. It took me awhile to figure out how to just get the TC in the right postion. Shop manual only tells you what to do but not how to do it. 1 year later I had some work done on the TC and they found a slight leak in that cylinder seal. I needed it repaired ASAP and had them do it since the machine was already there. The repair bill for a new seal was $600. As you guessed most of it was labor. It think parts was less than $5. I had O rings replaced in a valve on my Skid steer. I could not find the leak despite looking hard but it was getting worse over 6 months. Very hard to get to valve and remove. Labor was $500 and the o ring was 36 cents.

If they quoted you $1000 for labor, then don't go ballistic when you see a bill for $1000. You already told them to fix it for that price.

 

[futuresweets10]

If you don't want a $1,000 repair bill you, need to stop them now. They quoted a price to do a job and if you didn't dispute, there is no way you can argue in the end.

Overcharging or not, if the quote was agreed upon, it is the quote. If it was $2,000 in labor when you get done, that's different.

Hope it works out & the labor charge isn't that high, but if you weren't clear up front that it was too high, I don't think you should complain.

There was nothing in writing and he didnt say for sure how many hours it would be. I asked if he had any idea how much it would be and his words were " I would guess around 1000 in labor". With that said, I expect to be billed for how many hours it takes, not 1000 just because he guess it. If its a 15min job and they bill me for 8hrs there is a problem there regardless of what he told me up front. If im doing a dirt job by the yard and I estimate 100 yards, and then only use 80 its not right for me to charge for 100. If I figure its going to take 100 yards and give a set price based on that and it only takes 80 then I come out on top. Cat charges by the hour not the job, so they should charge me for how long it takes, not how long they thought it would take before they started.

 

[futuresweets10]

If you don't want a $1,000 repair bill you, need to stop them now. They quoted a price to do a job and if you didn't dispute, there is no way you can argue in the end.

I didnt take what he said as a "quote". I was told that it was 87 an hour and I expect to be billed for how many hours it takes. On the flip side if the said about 1000 and then it took 25hrs you can be **** sure he isnt going to let it go for 1000

 

[Ford tractor]

You asked how much, he scratched his head and said "$1000 ?". That's as good as it gets in the heavy equipment biz. Unlike us small time operators that are either retired, semi-retired or just plain tired -> the contractors that have heavy equipment broken lose $2-500 in revenue per hour of down time. Plus, they may accrue penalties on top of the lost revenue and they still have to pay an operating engineer to sit on his butt. They would much rather have every possible bad component ripped out and replaced if that got them up right now and keep them up than save $1-2000 by detailed trouble shooting.

The commercial heavy equipment repair world is no place for the faint of heart or light of wallet! If you want to save your $$, invest in a training class and tools. It doesn't take many trips to the repair shop to equal a full tool box and a few classes from the local Vo-tech. Were I you, I would thank the man, pay the bill and take it as a lesson learned

 

[futuresweets10]

You asked how much, he scratched his head and said "$1000 ?". That's as good as it gets in the heavy equipment biz. Unlike us small time operators that are either retired, semi-retired or just plain tired -> the contractors that have heavy equipment broken lose $2-500 in revenue per hour of down time. Plus, they may accrue penalties on top of the lost revenue and they still have to pay an operating engineer to sit on his butt. They would much rather have every possible bad component ripped out and replaced if that got them up right now and keep them up than save $1-2000 by detailed trouble shooting.

The commercial heavy equipment repair world is no place for the faint of heart or light of wallet! If you want to save your $$, invest in a training class and tools. It doesn't take many trips to the repair shop to equal a full tool box and a few classes from the local Vo-tech. Were I you, I would thank the man, pay the bill and take it as a lesson learned

I get what you guys are saying, but I just dont follow the logic. I seem to be getting the advice that since heavy equipment is expensive to repair and since most people need it repaired at all costs its okay for the guy to rip me of or over charge.

 

[MFRED]

If he told you you would pay be the hour, then that's fine. But I think they had 4 hours in it already? Many of the large places are clocked on the job from the moment the work order crosses the tech's hands to the moment it's cleaned & put back outside. Including looking up parts, making the bill and everything else.

It may take an hour of work to fix the problem, but there would be extra time figuring out parts, cleaning up tools and so on.

I'm not saying that's the way yours will be, but it's not uncommon. Most shops will quote a rough price to do a job, then if it goes over, they need to justify it. Like if bolts were broken & they needed to be drilled & tapped. Stuff like that.

More and more equipment dealerships are going to flat rate as well. Then you would know up front how much a particular service would cost. It would be hard to flat rate hydraulic troubleshooting, along with electrical, but some places have a flat charge for that as well.
Good for the tech & company if it can be done quick, good for the customer if it's a tricky one.
If you have a good tech that can do a 4 hour job in 2.5, because he's done a ton of them, then he should get a little extra. I wouldn't fault him for that.

I would rather pay "by the job" than "by the hour". Then it doesn't matter if you get the quickest young guy, or the steady older guy.

 

[tlbuser]

No I don't think anyone is saying it's ok. For the most part, everyone here wants to see you succeed in helping yourself. The problem I see is there hasn't been any logical steps of troubleshooting on your end. You have requested, and been given, some good and practical step by steps. However, what I'm reading is that somehow, without pressure tests, you decided the valve was bad so you took it out and had it overhauled. When that didn't work, you blamed the shop that did what you asked of them. Then you decided it had to be the cylinder, out it comes. When that didn't work out, you road the machine to a different repair shop and are now questioning their unwritten repair estimate. Slow down, take a couple deep breaths, it'll be OK. May cost more than you wanted to pay but in the end run, the machine gets fixed and you (hopefully) learn some valuable lessons.

As an owner/operator i have forced myself to learn how to take things apart and put them back together. I now have big tools, O/A torches, plasma cutter, milling machine and a lathe at my disposal. I have 2 mobile mechanics on speed dial, just in case. I also have accounts at three rental stores, just in case. I have two different hydraulic shops I rely on for parts, service and help. I have accounts at places like McMaster Carr, Grainger and MSC to buy odds and ends to repair my own stuff. All of it takes time, patience and probably too much money. It's still fun for me though and until it's not, I'll keep at it.

 

[J_J]

futuresweets10

Some on here, seem to want you to take it as it is. The point to be made here is that if the people that rebuilt the valve had tested the valve completely, they would have discovered that things were not correct. I would let them know that you are dissapointed with the whole deal, and you are considering legal action if you don't get a complete break down of time , work preformed, and so called estimates. You might even challenge their trouble shooting process. I suggest that they were doing other jobs, and looking at your job when convenient. Sure the time adds up when they include lunch breaks, rest room stops, shooting the bull with friends, etc. If you have to, stop all work and order parts and do it your self.

 

[tlbuser]

futuresweets10

The point to be made here is that if the people that rebuilt the valve had tested the valve completely, they would have discovered that things were not correct. I would let them know that you are dissapointed with the whole deal, and you are considering legal action if you don't get a complete break down of time , work preformed, and so called estimates. You might even challenge their trouble shooting process.

How is that remotely possible ? The machine has yet to be repaired and returned to service.