Adding ROPS to older tractors?

[deepNdirt]

This is my outlook on aftermarket ROPE kits, a Kit is just that, Via ( Kit ) one size does not fit all, IMO kits of any type are design for the DIY'rs, a kit is a generic form of a design, change out some hardware or simply ad a couple other parts/pc's for the sake of it fitting a few other applications and wala! you have a kit,
again this is only IMO , I put more faith in custom fabricators, By this I mean a welder/Fabricator/machinist, Not just a person who can re-weld the lawn mower deck back together, But someone who knows how to build & fabricate something out of steel and custom fit it to strengthen the weak points of my tractor or any other type of machinery,
Yes! the ROPS manufactures have done a bit of research and have come up with the technology to build a standardize (OSHA approved) ROPS, but again these are of a generic design, What might work well on one make tractor might not work so well on another, but on the other hand if it safed a life then I suppose it has done its job well,:thumbsup:

Example: --> In my business (Interior trim and custom cabinets), I talk with folks all the time about weighing out the cost of Box cabinets verses custom built ones, and usually it comes down to a time frame of if they can Waite for custom cabinets to be built or need to go ahead and get the ROPS I mean Box cabinets installed, Most folks prefer not wanting the Box style cabinets installed in their homes, although a box cabinet can be installed to look great from the outside but the structure design is still not there as would be in a custom built all wood custom fitted cabinet....................................

I'm sure any one of you can think back of things you would have rather of had being better, then having to settle with what you decided on, be it either reason for cost or time saved
My point is--- Kits are to save Time,,, and sure the ROPE Kits will save life's,
but for My Money I'd just assume have custom built & custom fitted,
Thank you very much

 

[Farmwithjunk]

While custom built ROPS structure MAY protect the operator, they are NOT OSHA certified. That is a deal killer for anyone with employees on the tractor, and also the deal killer as far as INSURANCE coverage is concerned. Most good fab shops won't touch a ROPS structure due to liability purposes. The difference is, no one will sue you if your can of Campbells soup gets a dent while inside the custom built cabinet, but relatives of someone seriously injured while under a home-made ROPS WILL. All the "kits" I've seen are NOT "one size fits all", but rather various kits that are offered for specific tractors. (ie, one kit that fits Ford and MF utilities, another kit that fits various Deere's, ect) Every "kit" ROPS I've seen IS OSHA certified, as they have the luxury of volume sales to afford the cost of certification.


Also worth mentioning, various state universities, especially land grant universities with significant AG programs will usually offer a retrofit ROPS program where they pick up part of the tab to make old tractors safer. Univ of Ky School of Agriculture was running a similar program last time I checked.

 

[eastexan]

The tractor I have now (Case/IH), is the first I've had that came equipped with ROPS/FOPS. It was owned by the state/county for mowing ROW.
But the ROPS has its own badge plate with the Manufacturer Name, Date, S/N, OSHA spec, and other info.

I am curious if all ROPS have to have this info, or only the ones used in public areas, (e.g. roadside maintenance, parks, etc.).

 

[kco]

yep.. most of the tractor deaths I see locally are from guys that have been driving their machine for 30-40 years, know it inside and out, and get caught in a bad spot.. like trailering. In fact.. I was loading my 850 with loader 2 days ago.. luckilly it was on my flat bed. as I was crawling up, one front tire was riding the edge of a ramp, while the other tire was centered ont he other ramp. well.. there was a soft spot in the dirt on the ramp that I was riding the edge and it rolled, I stomped at the clutch and brake in panic mode, missed the clutch the first time, but hit the left brake which actually scootched me left, and prevented the ramp from going completely over and wedged the tire an inch more onto it.. it was still rolled up.. 2nd stab at the clutch stopped me and I rolled back down and reset that ramp. had that been on my deckover and not my lowboy.. where the ramp rolled near the top.. that could have been much different.

wow.. removing rops and seatbelt from a machine with one. maybee if the worst happens and the machine isn't messed up, someone else can buy it from the estate and put the rops back on it


soundguy

Hmmm...thanks for the good wishes soundguy. The ROPS is with the implements and the base and two pins and two bolts to install it are still on the tractor. I'll show my wife how to install it so she can get full value when she sells it.

"most of the tractor deaths I've seen locally...." Really? I'm 68, grew up and lived in farming districts of Manitoba, Alberta and BC all my life and never heard of a local rollover death, and I do follow the news. The one tractor rollover and death I am familiar with is that of Merle Watson in North Carolina in 1985. He's the son of legendary bluegrass artist Doc Watson and I'd seen their concerts a couple of times. I've seen Doc Watson concerts since, but it did take a while before he started touring again.

One serious tractor accident I do have close personal experience with was in 1956 or 1957 when a friend lost a leg while dismounting an old John Deere and his pant leg got got in the flywheel. Those old machines certainly were more hazardous than now and I'm grateful for safety improvements they've made. The reason I know the date for this accident is because it is the year the film "Reach for the Sky" was made about Douglas Bader, the British WWII ace with two artificial legs. My friend was in Air Cadets (as were most of us). Douglas Bader somehow heard of the accident (I suppose through the Air Cadet organisation) and wrote my friend a letter giving him encouragement. A nice gesture.

I thought my ROPS post might draw some flak and that's fine. I just want the freedom to make personal choices where appropriate. I realise it is different when working for a company where all safety rules must be followed. It makes sense because there are varying degrees of experience and attitude, and bad choices put others at risk.

We all live with risk to varying degrees. In my lineman days we did hand contact hotwork from poles with just rubber gloves. Sleeves and a diving board (4' platform hung on pole to stand on to help block ground path) were required on deadend and transformer poles. I imagine that is illegal now and work is done only from insulated bucket trucks. That makes perfect sense.

I spent most of my life hiking and over 10 years doing serious mountain climbing in the Canadian Rockies. Much of that was unroped because you did not have time to protect the entire route. Other times a rope increases the danger such as on downward sloping, scree-covered ledges that can't be protected. If you are roped and one partner falls, you both die. After my main partner retired I continued to climb with half of the climbs being multi-day solo climbs. I estimate I backed-off at least 25% of the climbs, either giving up completely or coming back in better conditions. That's risk management and knowing and accepting limits.

I still hike alone(except for my dog Lucy). I tried a hiking club when I moved here but did not like the schedules and inflexibility. There is also an intense sense of peace that comes from being completely alone in a remote area. It may catch up with me, but it is worth the risk. I minimize the risk by taking enough food and clothes to spend the night, even for hikes into the hills on summer days directly behind our place.

We all have different views and priorities. A couple of years ago while preparing for a 3 day trip east of here (in the Kootenays south of Revelstoke), my wife said "Leave Lucy at home". We laughed and Lucy came. We both know Lucy's priorities are similar to mine. That season Lucy and I saw 27 bears(only one grizzly). I still think the most dangerous part is the drive out there.

In another period of my life we had horses. I considered that more dangerous than any other activity--you don't have complete control. Who knows what that 1/2 ton of muscle will do when the grouse takes off from the undergrowth? In winter I minimized risk by riding bareback. Besides it is warmer. I had two occasions where the horse fell and I found myself standing beside him holding the reins-much like the OP with his tractor roll. I'm sure having no saddle decreased the risk. However, in an autumn incident with a saddle, my thoroughbred and I fell when we hit a greasy patch under some leaves while cantering on a gentle sideslope. We slid together with my leg under him for about 6'. He was up in a flash and bolted. Luckily my foot came out of the stirrup. I found him about 1/2 mile further along.

I'm not disdainful of safety and don't enjoy danger. I realise others' views and priorities are different and respect that. I hope to live many more years doing my best to evaluate situations and die from something other than rolling my tractor. A heart attack while driving or maintaining it would be fine.

 

[JC-jetro]

Good read KCO Thanks for sharing. At the end of the day we're all individuals and have free will. We need to always be mindful of dangers surrounding us every day, but what is the alternative ... quit and die... Don't think so. I do rock climb with my boys and absoloutley love it but I either belay them or they belay me.. like that rope anywhere it makes sense.

JC,

 

[Short Game]

Until they outlaw old tractors with no ROPS, then anything is better than nothing. And for old tractors, nothing must be good enough?

Because I have so much low hanging stuff to clear, mine stays folded down. I'd never finish a mow if I had to put it up and down every time it was in the way. My new tractor's roll bar is a half a foot higher than my old one's roof. It grabs branches and smacks me in the back of the head with them. They grab my earphones off my head. I'm shortening my roll bar and adding sweeps and a roof (coostum, mon).

How many of yous guys puts on your seat belt every time?

The only rollover death I know about locally (many years ago) was when a Cat in the woods rolled. The operator jumped (or was thrown) right where the track came back down. They didn't find him until they righted the tractor.

 

[Gedfish]

I'm on the workplace health and safety committee at work, and it's almost getting to the stage where you can't even breathe without filling out a form. Seems every employer is going nuts about the prospect of being sued. However, the data around rollovers is just stark: the numbers don't lie. A complient ROPS properly used and fitted with a belt gives you a much better chance of surviving your tractor days. Over here, all ROPS must carry certification to to prove they have been tested so they will perform on a matched tractor. Am I too trusting ..? I hope the trust is never put to the test. And yes - I always wear a belt. Cheers, Ged

 

[eastexan]

Well said, Ged. :thumbsup:

 

[Soundguy]

ditto that 100%

deepndirt.. what you are missing is those tractors that were mentioned that fit the same rops.. they fit because their rear axle trumpet has the same spacing and size / geometry.

that's why a rops that fits a ford 9n fits a ferguson to-20 and a massey ferguson 35 etc.. etc.

soundguy

While custom built ROPS structure MAY protect the operator, they are NOT OSHA certified. That is a deal killer for anyone with employees on the tractor, and also the deal killer as far as INSURANCE coverage is concerned. Most good fab shops won't touch a ROPS structure due to liability purposes. The difference is, no one will sue you if your can of Campbells soup gets a dent while inside the custom built cabinet, but relatives of someone seriously injured while under a home-made ROPS WILL. All the "kits" I've seen are NOT "one size fits all", but rather various kits that are offered for specific tractors. (ie, one kit that fits Ford and MF utilities, another kit that fits various Deere's, ect) Every "kit" ROPS I've seen IS OSHA certified, as they have the luxury of volume sales to afford the cost of certification.


Also worth mentioning, various state universities, especially land grant universities with significant AG programs will usually offer a retrofit ROPS program where they pick up part of the tab to make old tractors safer. Univ of Ky School of Agriculture was running a similar program last time I checked.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

There's this "myth" being tossed around that says the best course of action in a rollover (on a ROPS equipped tractor) is to dive clear to the high side of the rollover......There is one of the WORST pieces of advice I've ever heard on the internet. They THINK (according to what has been said) ROPS keep you alive, but crush your arms and legs. Pure nonsense and horrible advice.

Use the seatbelt....Keep arms and legs inside the operators station. (Hold on the the steering wheel) and you stand the best chance of being protected.

Here's where we get all the anti-green establishment riled up...!

The 2-post ROPS as we know it was developed by engineers at John Deere in the mid 1960's. Once they had completed testing and development, their designs were made public domain, and Deere allowed ALL manufacturers to share in their designs, free of charge, as a way of increasing safety throughout the industry. First tractors to have factory installed ROPS were Deere's in 1966. Other brands followed in short order. The Deere engineers created a "safety zone" that protected the operator, and at the same time, created a resistance to continued rollover. In short, MOST rolls limited the tractors roll to merely turning on it's side. A full "roll cage" can in many instances PROMOTE further rolling....Make's 'em roll on down the hill like a beach ball.........And THAT would be where things go terribly wrong.

At various times throughout the years, Deere has offered retrofit ROPS units to owners of Deere tractors at reduced cost, even FREE on a couple occasions.

The current OSHA standards for ROPS structures was NOT initially written by OSHA. They took their lead from the ASAE. (American Society of Agricultural Engineers) Their standards were based on product development data supplied by John Deere. Deere's designs are based on simple physics. "Fissix" hasn't changed..... Attempts by others to "build a better mousetrap" haven't seen any advancements. A ROPS structure is really a very simple concept. Like anything else simple, the first thing most people wat to do is over think the subject. IMHO, when simple works best, it's best to leave it simple....

You wanna learn about ROPS? Go into the business of mowing state and interstate highways....You'll be bombarded with inspections from OSHA, State job safety inspectors, insurance underwriters, ect... You'll see every scrap of data on rollover injuries/deaths....

 

[Soundguy]

yep.. or work on federal projects. the company I work for gets at least 2 visits a year.. they smoke over stuff that has fops and rops canopies.

if we buy older equipment ( and we do.. can't afford the new stuff! ).. and it has no rops.. guess what.. it gets rops.

As FWJ said.. rops design is not solely to protect the operator but also is designed to stall the roll over.

many designs have a swept back look, or longer side extensions.

these are designed to stop the tractor just before it gets to the point of no return, and at this point the mechanical advantage of the pulling wheels, vs the rops planted int he ground is actually at an effective stopping point.

I just installed some rops on a ford 4600 and a ford 5000 late last year and early this year. both of them mowing tractors i have to road 8m thru traffic to get to a pasture. that 8m of driving with people texting on their phones and putting on makeup. I feel MUCH safer with a good rops that has a tag on it that lists the piece of equipment I am driving, and a sturdy seat with secure seat belt kit.

soundguy

 

[Short Game]

I have a saw on board much of the time in a scabbard mounted to the ROPS. I actually stopped carrying the saw as much because it almost got yanked out of the scabbard by a branch just a few weeks ago. I must admit that I'm probably in a pretty high risk situation.

I maintain a free, private, top quality disc golf course. It's a labor of love, as my labor and expenses are given as a service to the course and the game. (It is a good game.) There are plenty of places for my industrial tires to slide and too much sidehill to take it all at the right angle (something that changes with how wet things are). Trees and branches are in play and many add to the golf holes' challenges. The course runs from open meadows to deep mixed forest, with lots of elevation involved.

I guess this is my mountain climbing. There are about eight or ten hours of mowing a week for me to do in this season. This has been a wet one. I don't get stuck as often, or slide out of control as I once did. I'm not all that brave (and I try to understand my limitations). I also get my, and my neighbors' wood in every year. Part of my service thing. More risks there. Felling trees and yarding them out, buzzing the limbs, chipping the brush, all trying for a piece, or all, of me. I do much of that in the woods and the ROPS is getting hung up there too.

I don't love the idea of keeping the roll bar folded, and I understand that shortening it, as I plan to do, will increase the chance of an extended rollover. Thankfully, I'm still free to steer my own ship, judging for myself. I consider it my responsibility to my neighbors to be there for them. They've come to depend on me, and the tractor is a great blessing to all of us. It gives me the power to be more helpful. Having lived for several months this year without a tractor, I've gotten too far behind to play much golf.

So, those of us who are free of the constraints that contracts and currency seem to bring with them should strive to be safe, even if we do it our own ways. I'm not a breeder, so the gene pool won't be improved if I foolishly remove myself from it. I must recuse myself from the running in the Darwin Awards. I pin back the guards on my chopsaws too. It's not like I haven't been hurt by my machines. I have. But I bet I could build my own ROPS if I needed to. I'd probably be liable to be caught out on a lot of [official] safety violations while I built it.

 

[deepNdirt]

Thanks everyone for your patients and understanding my ignorance about ROPS,
I never intend to be misleading about the use of a factory built and fitted ROPS, ( OSHA certified ) I only meant that IMO the Kit ROPS that are offered as a DIY installed ones would not give me the comfort feeling I need to feel 100% safe, first of all I read about how if drilling holes or weld onto it would void its safety, and secondly I read that they're only good for one roll over and should be replaced in such an event, so I ask myself whats these things made of that cannot be drilled into or welded on? I do realize they are made from hollow tubing and drilling holes into them could weaken this area, and this is just my point ...... why not built them from stronger and of thicker materials if the manufacture feels as though this would be a weak link for safety then simply make them stronger, dont just for the sake of lifting liability from them provide a sheet of paper with conditions of safety care or will be void,

And another thing I have a problem with understanding is the design of the rounded corners,
Perhaps the ROPS is round in order to provide a certain amount of give and or roll, rather then being built with square corners and gussets to form a stronger and more rigid structure, it was mentioned that with a full roll cage could cause a tractor to keep rolling, I can see how this might happen,
But I also see the possibility of this happening with as well with the design of a rounded corner ROPS,
I guess I just don't understand the geometry of how one could be built the way it is with round corners and be less susceptible to do a complete roll than one built with a flat top and square corners, I do not have evidents to show that one design is better then the other, I am only to assume that round corners must be better as long as OSHA say's so:thumbsup: although I think it would be interesting to see a physical crash dummy test of both scenarios, anyone know of any video's out there?

 

[Short Game]

I think the round corners are to provide some give. This would dampen the inertia of the roll, whereas a rigid corner would not, and could 'pole vault' you the rest of the way over (and over, and over...).

The trouble with this kind of regulation is, it tries to be the be-all and end-all answer. Unfortunately, situations are never one-size-fits-all.

As a lifelong freak, I'll probably get it in a freak accident. Lord knows I've had more than my share of close calls. Diesel-electric submarines, motorcycles, teenage driving, tractors... I've come to believe that thing about "when your number is up." It's that one you never saw coming, the one that no one would have seen coming, that will get you. That, or you die of old age.

One thing I did learn in the navy: Nothing is kid-proof or sailor-proof.

The folding ROPS was just asking for it, eh?

 

[Soundguy]

I never intend to be misleading about the use of a factory built and fitted ROPS, ( OSHA certified ) I only meant that IMO the Kit ROPS that are offered as a DIY installed ones would not give me the comfort feeling I need to feel 100% safe,

I think you may STILL be mistaken.

I know of at least one supplier of rops that sends the top bar seperate from the uprights.. and you bolt that togehter yourself .. it's done that way for shipping.

and all rops i have seen generally use a floating bracket under the axle as a sandwich point.. so.. factory or installed 'kit' it's never just 1 part you bolt on, but a colelction of parts.

if it's certified for your machine.. that's all that matters.. it's been tested. doesn't matter if it is in 3 pieces or 5 pieces .

how do you think the mnufacturer got that rops.. especially the folding ones.

you don't think it came all in one piece of metal and they punched it ut like a puzzle piece do ya? heck no.. it came as a kit and was installed.

soundguy

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Thanks everyone for your patients and understanding my ignorance about ROPS,
I never intend to be misleading about the use of a factory built and fitted ROPS, ( OSHA certified ) I only meant that IMO the Kit ROPS that are offered as a DIY installed ones would not give me the comfort feeling I need to feel 100% safe, first of all I read about how if drilling holes or weld onto it... it would void its safety, and secondly I read that they're only good for one roll over and should be replaced in such an event, so I ask myself whats these things made of that cannot be drilled into or welded on? I do realize they are made from hollow tubing and drilling holes into them could weaken this area, and this is just my point ...... why not built them from stronger and of thicker materials if the manufacture feels as though this would be a weak link for safety.
perhaps the ROPS need to bend to provide a certain amount of give, rather then to be built stronger and more rigid, it was mentioned that with a full roll cage could cause a tractor to keep rolling, I can see how this might happen,
But I also see the possibility of this happening with as well with the design of a rounded corner ROPS,
I guess I just don't understand the geometry of how one could be built the way it is with round corners and be less susceptible to do a complete roll than one built with a flat top and square corners, I do not have evidents to show that one design is better then the other, I am only to assume that round corners must be better as long as OSHA say's so:thumbsup: although I think it would be interesting to see a physical crash dummy test of both scenarios, anyone know of any video's out there?

It's not so much a case of their being made of material that is so that you cannot weld or drill on them as it is they cannot be randomly MODIFIED in any way shape or form without voiding the certification...Drill one tiny hole, and it's no longer the "same" ROPS as was tested and certified.... That's more of a technicality of the "law" and a legal way out for ROPS manufacturers, than one of material issues making welding a "bad thing". And to their credit, they would have no control over WHO welds (or drill) and how much common (or uncommon) sense is used in the modifications. The "no modifications" restriction applies to OEM ROPS just the same as it does to aftermarket retrofit ROPS. You need to keep in mind that with a ROPS, just as with ANY safety item these days, not only are you dealing with OSHA, you have insurance companies and shark...er....lawyers at the doorstep waiting to devour the next victim. You can elect to be the "rebel without a ROPS" or you can play by the rules and refuse to give ambulance chasers a free pass.

OSHA doesn't say "round corners are better". They merely certify the integrity of the loop to resist crushing under a roll. It IS much better in fact, to have the squared corners. They resist continued rolling much more so than the rounded versions. In that sense, you might have misinterpreted what some of us are saying.

The single most important aspect of a rops is it's structural integrity. NEXT in line is it's resistance to further rolling. All things equal, I MUCH prefer OEM style ROPS with the "TEE" top bar. There are a few of those available as aftermarket add ons.

Who's to say which one of us can make the call to modify a ROPS without effecting its integrity and who can't. It would be a nightmare to leave that up to a civil court, an independent engineer, a welding shop owner, or a private individual. Toss reality into the picture and the ONLY suitable way to handle this is to just simply forbid ANYONE from modifying a ROPS and let it go at that....As I said earlier, I don't know of one single fab shop that would take on the liability of so much as drilling a small hole in ANY ROPS, OEM, OR aftermarket. The risk far outweighs any possible rewards.

 

[JC-jetro]

Thanks everyone for your patients and understanding my ignorance about ROPS,
I never intend to be misleading about the use of a factory built and fitted ROPS, ( OSHA certified ) I only meant that IMO the Kit ROPS that are offered as a DIY installed ones would not give me the comfort feeling I need to feel 100% safe, first of all I read about how if drilling holes or weld onto it would void its safety, and secondly I read that they're only good for one roll over and should be replaced in such an event, so I ask myself whats these things made of that cannot be drilled into or welded on? I do realize they are made from hollow tubing and drilling holes into them could weaken this area, and this is just my point ...... why not built them from stronger and of thicker materials if the manufacture feels as though this would be a weak link for safety then simply make them stronger, dont just for the sake of lifting liability from them provide a sheet of paper with conditions of safety care or will be void,

And another thing I have a problem with understanding is the design of the rounded corners,
Perhaps the ROPS is round in order to provide a certain amount of give and or roll, rather then being built with square corners and gussets to form a stronger and more rigid structure, it was mentioned that with a full roll cage could cause a tractor to keep rolling, I can see how this might happen,
But I also see the possibility of this happening with as well with the design of a rounded corner ROPS,
I guess I just don't understand the geometry of how one could be built the way it is with round corners and be less susceptible to do a complete roll than one built with a flat top and square corners, I do not have evidents to show that one design is better then the other, I am only to assume that round corners must be better as long as OSHA say's so:thumbsup: although I think it would be interesting to see a physical crash dummy test of both scenarios, anyone know of any video's out there?

Some of the after market rops are designed to be energy absorbing meaning they deform up to a point but will not fall apart and the safety cage will be in tact upon a roll over . The OEM stuff will not deform for the criteria they designed it for. any thing and everything can be destroyed given the right conditions even with factory rops andh OSHA lable on it.

JC,