Adding a turbo to a TN65

[Wildcat Ranch]

I have been working on this project off and on for a week now and I am almost done. I got the turbo from a friend. I think its off a newer Subaru, but, he won't tell me. All the fittings were from the local auto parts center except for the water fitting going into the block, oil drain adapter and tube. I didn't turn up my injector pump and don't plan on it but the tractor is a lot more responsive then what it use to be. I am now waiting for my wastegate. It was suppose to be here today but now, I am hoping tomorrow.
I have 2 tabs to weld onto the piping for support and then, a little black paint! Also, I am not too happy with the way the rubber hose on the intake side is buckling and I might change it. Any suggestions?

I would like people to point out anything they would have done differently. My engineering skills kinda stink and I am always trying to improve them.

 

[skidsteer.ca]

I got the turbo from a friend. I think its off a newer Subaru, but, he won't tell me.

I didn't turn up my injector pump and don't plan on it but the tractor is a lot more responsive then what it use to be. I am now waiting for my wastegate.

I am not too happy with the way the rubber hose on the intake side is buckling and I might change it. Any suggestions?

I would like people to point out anything they would have done differently. QUOTE]

The install looks pretty clean with the exception of the intake hose, which likely has enough cross section to allow adequate air flow. The only thing I can suggest here is a offset made out of steel and a smaller piece of rubber on each end.

Most factory turbo installs have nice radiused corners on the exhaust, the first elbow out of the turbo looks pretty square. Turbos installations need free flowing exhaust because the turbo itself is enough of a bottle neck. Your elbow has a large diameter so restriction may not be that bad.

You should have provisions for a boost guage so you can see the net results of you labours. Also possibly a pyrometer to be sure you fuel curve is not to rich and runs too hot.

Now for some questions
Did you see this particular turbo installed on another tn65?
There are many configurations of turbos to balance the boost output properly to the engine.
If this is not right, either you will have no boost or the boost will be too high and will damage the engine.
Most turbo engines have lower mechanical compression ratios too.
Is this the same engine NH uses in my tn75?

I enquired about making my NH skidsteer ls160 into a ls170. It is the same engine, but the turbo model used a open chamber cylinder head to lower the compression. I would need to swap the head, and add the turbo, then adjust the injection pump.

I wish you luck, I hope you have more information about this combination then you initial post would suggest. Please let us know how it turns out.
Ken

 

[john_bud]

Three words,

Pyrometer, pyrometer, pyrometer.

You really must use one just after the turbo to tell if the engine is hurting it's self. 1200F is about the hotter you want to ever see. Short bursts of up to 1400F if the pistons have bottom cooling (your's probably don't).

I question the exhaust pipe outlet being close to what looks like plastic. That pipe is probably going to get hot, if not dern hot, maybe even really hot. You may be able to just wrap it with some exhaust insulation like the hot rodders use on headers.

If you can get a steel pipe with a double kink you may be able to use that with rubber sleeves on the ends for the inlet.

Overall, I would say it looks nice. good job.

jb

 

[MtnViewRanch]

Don't want to be a killjoy, but you asked and I'm telling. Pistons and piston coolers for sure and maybe the head should be changed also. Not to say that what you have done won't work. But to be sure of the longevity of the engine, internal parts most likely should have been changed.

I hope that it works out for ya.

 

[dieselgeek]

I tune a lot of turbo engines (gas and diesel) and I'm not sure why the thinking is that there will be more power with boost, but no additional fuel. Also, the fuel must come from either lowered opening pressure injectors, or higher pressure from the pump. The reason for this, is that you must get the "extra' fuel into the engine during the narrow timing window the diesel allows. Fuel outside the timing window, is the reason for black smoke. The injectors have a "closing time" and when this goes outside the usable timing window, black smoke happens.

There really isn't such a thing as "rich" or "lean" in diesel speak. Typical AFRs run between 70:1 and 7:1. The goal with turbocharging on a diesel is simply to reduce EGT temperature with increased fuelling. although, it's not necessary to go with new pistons or open chambers, that's only to take advantage of turbochargers that are most efficient at much higher PSI.

Proper selection of turbocharger requires careful examination of the compressor map, and both the hot side and compressor side Area:Radius ratios. I tune fuel injection, not select turbos, which is a science all it's own.

There should be no reason you feel "more response" if you haven't changed the fuelling, also what psi does that wastegate open up at?

A Pyrometer right after the turbo is an absolute must!! as is a boost gauge. You can get cheaper K-type thermocouples from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty... Also, looking at your pics, I'd suggest an Intake Air Temp gauge as without an intercooler, and a small turbo, you are probably raising your intake air temps enough to reduce power...
-scott

 

[SkyPup]

Once air is compressed over 8 psi an intercooler is an absolute requirement, otherwise all the turbocompressor wheel is doing is heating up the air to the point where it completely negates the increased air flow. At one bar atomspheric boost, most compressors have raised the air temp to oven temperature, about 350*F.

 

[Wildcat Ranch]

I will start off by admitting that I didn't do any research on this turbo but I now know its a IHI-Turbo, RHF5 VF40 off of a 06-07 Subaru legacy. I have uploaded charts for it below. I got this turbo in trade for some work I did for my friend, about $75 dollars worth.

The wastegate that was on it had a 10PSI spring but I ended up twisting the rod when I had it off, which, broke the seal. The spring is just to hold it closed for to time being. I barely go above idle if I need to move the tractor. I bought a new wastegate that has a adjustable rod, which has a minimum of 7psi.

I realize that I have to increase fuel to get more power but without the turbo, the tractor felt a little sluggish. Now it seems that the rpm's climb quicker, but then, maybe its all in my head.

The exhaust is 2 1/2 inch tubing. Do I need more then that?

I don't want to make it sound like I am a know-it-all, and i'm not but I have done reading online (reading, no hands on experience) on Powerstrokes, Cummins and Duramax's. From what I have read, going with a bigger turbo or going twin will lower you egt's.The VF40 is bigger then the factory turbo's on the TN75 by quiet a bit. Also, the VF40 is water cooled and oil lubricated where the TN75 only has oil. Without a intercooler, how many psi would be safe? I do plan on getting a Pyro meter and boost gauge, but if I only run 7-10lbs of boost, do I have to worry about it?

Sorry for all the questions and my stupidity, but all your input and advice has helped me a lot and is very appreciated.

Dan

 

[Coolnslo]

Not trying to be mean (really) but am curious and wondering:

What's the point of this? A few more horsepower at the risk of damaging the engine?
Are you prepared to pay for a new engine if it is ruined?
If you really need more horsepower, why not trade up to a tractor designed for it?
Your friend won't tell you where he got it? ???

I wish you luck. Your a lot braver than me and I have a life long experience working on things mechanical. I would never try what you are doing.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Talk to your NH dealer about it. Ask them just how much is different between the TN65 and TN75. The engine is the same but the small bits are what matter. For what you are trying to do I would look at trading the 65 in for a 75 (either a TN or TT). Best of luck to you but this type of experiment has a huge chance of failure with very little gain as a reward

 

[dieselgeek]

Not trying to be mean (really) but am curious and wondering:

What's the point of this? A few more horsepower at the risk of damaging the engine?
Are you prepared to pay for a new engine if it is ruined?
If you really need more horsepower, why not trade up to a tractor designed for it?
Your friend won't tell you where he got it? ???

I wish you luck. Your a lot braver than me and I have a life long experience working on things mechanical. I would never try what you are doing.

ACtually, done right, it'll work out great for him. He just has a little bit of work left to go...


On the turbocharger, you can't really say "how much PSI" because each turbo is moving a different mass quantity of air for a given boost pressure.

For starters, I'd try to keep it as low as 5psi max until you can watch EGTs and manifold pressure.

In the case of the larger turbo, you might not have enough exhaust to spool it but it sounds as if it's spooling now, if you load it a bit?


How many cubic inches is your tractor, and how much horsepower? You can derive the lb/min mass airflow from the power numbers and get an idea how much exhaust flow you have driving the turbine, then you can look at the compressor maps above and plot your airflow characteristics on it. There's a website that'll do this for you.


As for the people wondering why do this, well, people gave me crap for putting Throttle Body Fuel Injection on a flathead six tractor - but in the end, it gets twice the fuel economy, runs 1000% smoother (HEI electronic ignition and EFI controlled by Megasquirt!), starts and idles at 450rpm, and the owner says he can't believe more people don't do the conversion... so, go with it!

-scott

 

[Coolnslo]

ACtually, done right, it'll work out great for him. He just has a little bit of work left to go...


On the turbocharger, you can't really say "how much PSI" because each turbo is moving a different mass quantity of air for a given boost pressure.

For starters, I'd try to keep it as low as 5psi max until you can watch EGTs and manifold pressure.

In the case of the larger turbo, you might not have enough exhaust to spool it but it sounds as if it's spooling now, if you load it a bit?


How many cubic inches is your tractor, and how much horsepower? You can derive the lb/min mass airflow from the power numbers and get an idea how much exhaust flow you have driving the turbine, then you can look at the compressor maps above and plot your airflow characteristics on it. There's a website that'll do this for you.


As for the people wondering why do this, well, people gave me crap for putting Throttle Body Fuel Injection on a flathead six tractor - but in the end, it gets twice the fuel economy, runs 1000% smoother (HEI electronic ignition and EFI controlled by Megasquirt!), starts and idles at 450rpm, and the owner says he can't believe more people don't do the conversion... so, go with it!

-scott

Scott

I hope your'e right. Looks like you have a lot of experience with this. Just something I wouldn't try. If I needed more horsepower, I would just try to convice the wife I needed a bigger tractor - More Power!! Hope your advice helps him get right.

 

[dieselgeek]

it's OK - some guys on here would never consider something like a DIY turbo setup, but for others it's the perfect thing to do especially if their tractor isn't used all the time...

Here's a link to a video of us tuning the EFI system, on a totally homemade turbocharged car that races at the Bonneville Salt Flats every year. This car was clocked at 251mph last year, but was unable to make the backup run (two passes required to set a record) due to valvetrain problems. We detuned the engine and dyno flogged this thing until we knew our problems were sorted out...


Anyways, gives you an idea of what can be done with junkyard parts. The engine is a stout piece, a Merlin-block 515 cid Chevy, but the turbos are junkyard parts from wrecked Ford diesel trucks; this should give DIY'ers inspiration by the ton!


1320Video - Dynoing the Studebaker

 

[Coolnslo]

I watched your video. Wow! An inspiring piece of work. Sorry to get this thread off subject. I'll shut up now.

 

[Wildcat Ranch]

I looked at the parts manual for the TN65 and TN75. They have the same cubic inches but the block, pistons, rings, and others parts are different part numbers.

The reasons why I don't trade up? There isn't any used TN75's around my area and I couldn't afford one if there was. I am 17, bought the tractor just recently with cashed saved up for $10,500, which, I would like to ask if anybody else thinks that was a deal. I included the dealer pictures below of the tractor. Once I get the turbo done, I will get better pictures. The newest tractor that I was able to find for a price close to mine was a 1995 CaseIh with 4000 hours, they had it listed at $11,500 and I have been looking for a few months.

I like tinkering and especially modifying things. There's no such thing as can't in my vocabulary. I usually tear into something before I actually know what I am doing and it bites me in the butt most of the time. Someone once told me, the best way to learn is to just do it!

Scott, Thats a impressive car. It must have been exciting to build it.

To get back on the subject, The TN65 is a 179ci engine putting out 65HP. You asked if I can hear when it loads. What would I be trying to hear? Would that be when it starts to whistle? It does whistle at higher rpm's.
I tried but couldn't figure out the air flow part on those maps. Do you have the link to the website you mentioned?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[dieselgeek]

Well, I just saw your pics of the recommendations by IHI on turbo applications, for just "picking any old turbo" you got pretty lucky, that turbo is great for your application if perhaps just a little too big.

IHI does a decent job of recommending "power ranges" and your tractor falls right in the lower end of recommended diesel applications for that particular turbo.

Usually guys don't even plumb the water lines, on a tractor it might be a good idea though... I think your fab work is fine.

Here's a map for the IHI units:

I'd recommend getting a boost gauge and perhaps weakening the wastegate spring (cut a coil? make it adjustable? should be pretty easy) to get the max boost down to a low level for starters (so you don't hurt anything). Then find out what PSI it boosts to (a boost gauge is cheap! few bucks from a parts store for a basic fuel pressure gauge would do fine!) loaded, and unloaded at higher RPMs.

I think the wastegate is big enough on that turbo that all you'd need to do is have it open sooner, at lower boost pressure. You are going to have to watch EGTs, there's no two ways about that - Autometer's decent EGT setup with gauge is like $160, there are cheaper ones out there or go used and get a replacement thermocouple for $30 from Aircraft Spruce.


Anyways, before using it you need boost pressure control (wastegate) and EGT monitoring. Start on small boost. The wastegate shoudl be big enough to let you regulate as low as 2-3 psi.

Set that up then get back with us, and we'll make sure it's working to help and not hurt the motor,
-scott

 

[Robert_in_NY]

What are you planning on using this tractor for? One thing that jumped to my head was the rear tires are R-4's and worn at that. For what you paid you could have bought a brand new TT75 for just a few grand more. I know you are on a limited budget but I would talk to a dealer and try to trade this TN back in on a TT with the hp and new tires. Tires alone will set you back quite a bit and if you want to go R-1s you will need new rims which will easily justify the cost of a new TT.

I have no problem with what you are doing as I always enjoy threads like yours but I know where you are roughly in your life and what you are trying to do. Buy the proper tractor, finance the difference if you have to and I assure you that everytime you are on your new tractor you will be smiling

For a price comparison, I bought my 1987 Ford 7710-II with 4800 hours and putting out 120 hp. It was 2wd with a cab and cost me around $14k. Plus, it already had a turbo

Best of luck to you and if you need any help with anything just post it and I am sure someone on here will be able to help you.

 

[Wildcat Ranch]

I'd recommend getting a boost gauge and perhaps weakening the wastegate spring (cut a coil? make it adjustable? should be pretty easy)

Heres a picture of the wastegate that I already ordered a couple days ago.

Internal Wastegate Actuator

The min is 7psi. I already opened my old one and I would be worried that I would not be able to crimp it back together tight enough so that the rubber doesn't slip out. Any thing else I could do, short of having to open the wastegate up?

Through Summit Racing, I can get 2 identical looking egt and boost gauges with illumination for about $200 altogether.

What are you planning on using this tractor for?

I will using it to cut, rake, bale and pull a balewagon. Before I went out to look at my tractor, I already got pricing to put on 16.9x30's. But the tires have more tread then what it looks like in the pictures. I hoping they will last a few more years. I don't plan on having this tractor for more then 2-3 years.

I didn't want to borrow money for a tractor. I try to have the money before I buy anything, so that I won't ever bury myself in debt.

 

[dieselgeek]

If you want to make sure it'll live, you're going to need the boost and EGT information. Git-r-done!!

 

[DavesTractor]

I didn't want to borrow money for a tractor. I try to have the money before I buy anything, so that I won't ever bury myself in debt.

I commend you for saving such a chunk of cash at a young age. That is excellent, you are ahead of most people already. I also really like the turbo. You are getting excellent advice, and you seem to be taking it well and asking for more. That is also a very good character trait. Be careful not to toast your engine, but keep doing what you are doing!

 

[john_bud]

Wildcat,

At 17 you have your head screwed down pretty tight. You did good quality work on a fairly difficult project. You asked for input in a open manor and are able to hold your own on a technical discussion. Those are all impressive things. But knowing financial impacts of swimming in debt at 17 is great.

Keep us updated with the progress.

jb