A Question for Sailors

/ A Question for Sailors #241  
Well, to spin a 'salty sea ditty' (true, as I was there :eek:ath:):

Scenario; Destroyer cruising in the inbound sea lane Strait of Juan de Fuca off of Victoria, BC. Afternoon. Very calm. A small 'cabined' sailboat apparently adrift and drifting into the sealane - no skipper or crew visible.

We (destroyer) slowed and observed... eventually we sounded our horn!!!

Two heads 'popped up' from the sailboat's cockpit. The female crew(person?) SMACKS the skipper and scrambles her bare arse down into the cabin. The sailboat skipper laughs, waves to us, and manoeuvres his vessel out of the channel.

Navigational crisis avoided. :)
 
/ A Question for Sailors #242  
Now days most crucial navigation systems that use GPS have back up inertial systems...inertial systems do not need any outside data i.e., satellites, radio direction beacons etc., etc...as far as I know the military is fully invested in the inertial (back up) systems...

Obama killed the funding that kept LORAN C going which was always primarily a civilian use system...even after the chinese demonstrated they could take out all the GPS birds...

That past president did not have the best intentions for his country.
 
/ A Question for Sailors #243  
That past president did not have the best intentions for his country.

I seriously doubt Obama was to blame for this accident. Loran C has been outdated and obsolete for 30+ yrs. Loran C has absolutely nothing to due with the safe navigation and adherence to the 'rules of the road'. A seaman 'looking out of the window', AND the naval vessel making itself visible while 'not under command' would have prevented this incident.
"That past president did not have the best intentions for his country" show your ignorance of the facts.
 
/ A Question for Sailors #244  
I seriously doubt Obama was to blame for this accident. Loran C has been outdated and obsolete for 30+ yrs. Loran C has absolutely nothing to due with the safe navigation and adherence to the 'rules of the road'. A seaman 'looking out of the window', AND the naval vessel making itself visible while 'not under command' would have prevented this incident.
"That past president did not have the best intentions for his country" show your ignorance of the facts.

The discussion you replied to was on a totally different tangent...go back and read the thread in a comprehensive manner and you will see that the discussion had canted to alternative navigation systems in the event of electronic espionage etc., etc...

The military rarely used LORAN regardless...a private or commercial vessel reporting a position to the USCG would always have to convert a LORAN waypoint to Lat/Lon for the coasties...

but obsolete for 30+ years...I don't think so...

Obama Seeks to Eliminate Loran Funding
By: Roy Mark | May 15, 2009

President Obama's 2010 federal budget proposes cutting all funding to the nation's Loran navigational system, claiming GPS has made the system obsolete. Lawmakers from both sides of the aisle, though, are making a case to keep Loran in light of recent reports the GPS system is faltering.

http://www.eweek.com/mobile/obama-seeks-to-eliminate-loran-funding
 
/ A Question for Sailors #245  
That sounds reasonable to me.

How close would you guess that the pleasure vessel was to the ferry as the "potty mouth" started recording? My guess is less than 100 yards. The only evidence I see (hear) that the ferry captain did anything was to sound his horn and judging by prop wash, reverse engine(s) near the time of the collision.

Steve

I saw a chart showing the course the ferry was following and the ferry should have seen the smaller boat much earlier than when the video started. Plenty of time to do something other than sounding the horn blasts and reverse. If the ferry had simply slowed down earlier then the small boat would have just gone on by.

Later,
Dan
 
/ A Question for Sailors #246  
That past president did not have the best intentions for his country.
The last person I know using LORAN retired the unit in 1995.

I know this because I broke the antenna on the stern rail of his sailboat. Offered to replace the antenna, or give him a new handheld GPS - a Garmin GPS45 Personal Navigator, which was already lower cost than even the replacement antenna. He took the GPS, happily.

Funding for LORAN C ceased, not because of who was resident in the White House, but because the Coast Guard announced a finding in 2009 that it was no longer needed. It was shut down in 2010 and the Europeans and Brits shut down their network a few years later.
 
/ A Question for Sailors #248  
The discussion you replied to was on a totally different tangent...go back and read the thread in a comprehensive manner and you will see that the discussion had canted to alternative navigation systems in the event of electronic espionage etc., etc...

The military rarely used LORAN regardless...a private or commercial vessel reporting a position to the USCG would always have to convert a LORAN waypoint to Lat/Lon for the coasties...

but obsolete for 30+ years...I don't think so...



Obama Seeks to Eliminate Loran Funding


I base my statement on Loran C from personal experience. I believe the last time I used it was in the mid 80's? I sailed the high seas for 38 yrs before coming ashore two years ago. I do apologize for not reading the whole thread.
 
/ A Question for Sailors #249  
Well, to spin a 'salty sea ditty' (true, as I was there :eek:ath:):

Scenario; Destroyer cruising in the inbound sea lane Strait of Juan de Fuca off of Victoria, BC. Afternoon. Very calm. A small 'cabined' sailboat apparently adrift and drifting into the sealane - no skipper or crew visible.

We (destroyer) slowed and observed... eventually we sounded our horn!!!

Two heads 'popped up' from the sailboat's cockpit. The female crew(person?) SMACKS the skipper and scrambles her bare arse down into the cabin. The sailboat skipper laughs, waves to us, and manoeuvres his vessel out of the channel.

Navigational crisis avoided. :)

Many, many years ago I was on a boat patrol with two other people, one of whom was a ranking officer out to observe. It was the Fourth of July and we were patrolling the Inter Coastal Waterway and other nearby water ways in south Florida so it was going to be day of chaos and interesting events. :rolleyes::shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing:

We were put putting along and were passing a series of docks that were running perpendicular to the waterway when I noticed something strange out of the corner of my eye. I really did not see anything that registered with me other than what the heck was that movement. I said something along the lines of what the heck was that and we turned the boat around and eventually saw a man sitting in a chair on the shore line and a woman doing something in public that would be illegal. :rolleyes: :laughing::laughing::laughing: They noticed us about the time we noticed them and that was that. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

Different day but same area there was a woman laying face down on the fore deck of a rather large power boat. Her head was facing the stern and her legs were facing the bow. All I can say is that if you are going to wear a thong, you REALLY need to be in shape to carry it off. Some things should not be shown in public. :shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Later,
Dan
 
/ A Question for Sailors #250  
With the USS McCain collision, even Navy tech can’t overcome human shortcomings | Ars Technica
Based on the course followed by the ship [Alnic MC, a 600' chemical tanker], several sources Ars has conferred with suggest it's highly likely that the ship was on auto-pilot at the time of the collision, en route to pick up a pilot to bring the ship to an oil-handling terminal or to an anchorage to await unloading. The crew may have not even been paying attention when the McCain–which, based on the point of collision, would have had the right of way—passed in front of the ship.

The bow bulb really did a number.
170821-N-OU129-022-980x654.jpg
 
/ A Question for Sailors #251  
Back to the USN. :D

Yesterday evening the Wall Street Journal posted this story about the readiness of the USN, Investigators Repeatedly Warned Navy Ahead of Deadly Collisions - WSJ. The WSJ is behind a pay wall so people might not be able to read the report.

Congress and military officers have been warning about the operation temp and training issues and the GAO has issued three reports over the last few years on the subject.

Three reports in the past two years by the Government Accountability Office, an independent watchdog agency, spell out endemic problems. They found through interviews and Navy studies that U.S. sailors overseas often arrive to their assigned ships without adequate skills and experience. They end up on duty for an average of 108 hours a week, instead of the Navy-standard of 80 hours, the reports found.

Experienced sailors routinely provide on-the-job training for less experienced sailors, so the time doing this must come out of sleep, personal time, or other allotted work time, according to a May 2017 GAO report.

This is what I have been reading for years and I think it is to blame for the USN accidents that have been happening.

The USN has been following the business worlds mantra of Doing More With Less which means less gets done, and if there is not a change in the organization, things that are important simply do not get done. One ends up prioritizing what has to be done, but if there are five things to do, but one can only do three, that means two things are not done no matter their importance. Dong More With Less really should be called Doing More With Less While Leadership Thinks Things Are OK. :rolleyes:

To make it worse, the USN has taken the stupid ranking system that Welsh was using at GE where officers are ranked for performance. If there are 10 officers on a ship, the CO will rank them from 1 to 10 with 1 being the highest. Now all 10 officers might be really good, but the ranking system forces the CO to list the officers from bad to great even if there are no bad officers. The officers at the bottom are in trouble though they might be good officers. I have lived with this sort of stupidity for decades and have seen how destructive it is for an organization. At first, this process works to get rid of the deadwood, but eventually there is no deadwood, and the organization starts loosing very valuable people who simply cannot be replaced.

The USN is operating with less than half the ships but at the same tempo, if not higher, than when the Navy had 600 ships. I have heard "leadership" say that the quality of our ships allows the USN to operate with less ships which is just bovine scat. You can not have one ship in two places. :rolleyes:

Then the navy is forcing sailor to work 15 hour days vs 12 and I think 12 is nuts. I think this is part of the Do More With Less non sense. The leadership sets the schedule with not enough people and resources to really accomplish the mission but the crew gets it done. The crew knows that things did not work well but they got er' done anyway. The leadership says, well that worked, lets see if we can do it again. The crew pulls it off but the ship and crew readiness is slowly degrading over time. Then the leadership says Do More with Less yet again. And the crew pulls it off but at a cost the leadership does not see. This continues until the breakages and failures eventually get to a point that the leadership finally notices. I have watched this at work for years and I think the USN is now getting to the same point.

The problems have been notably acute overseas. A September 2016 GAO report concluded that while the Navy fleet has decreased by 18% since 1998, it still has maintained 100 ships overseas during that time.

鼎onsequently, each ship is being deployed more to maintain the same level of presence, according to the report, which also noted that maintenance has been reduced, deferred or eliminated.

A May 2015 report comparing U.S-based Navy units to foreign-based U.S. counterparts found that U.S.-based cruisers and destroyers spend 41% of their time in training missions and 22% deployed. Their Japan-based counterparts, by comparison, spent 67% of their timeé*�bout three times as much妖eployed during approximately the same period.

U.S. sailors based in Japan had no time dedicated to training, relying instead on training on the margins while under way at sea, according to Navy officials interviewed for the report.

The U.S. Seventh Fleet, based out of Yokosuka, Japan, is among the most adversely affected by a shortage of personnel and the increasing demands for deployments.

USN ships are running aground, hitting seamounts, colliding with other vessels, getting hit by other vessels, etc, not because of hacking, but simply because the ships are not being maintained as they should be and the crews are untrained and TIRED.

Later,
Dan
 
/ A Question for Sailors #252  
USN ships are running aground, hitting seamounts, colliding with other vessels, getting hit by other vessels, etc, not because of hacking, but simply because the ships are not being maintained as they should be and the crews are untrained and TIRED.

I have a really dumb question ... how is it possible that a USN destroyer with all of its advanced radar and warning systems fail to detect a cargo ship as big as 4 football fields? That doesn't seem possible! :confused3:
 
/ A Question for Sailors #253  
...

To make it worse, the USN has taken the stupid ranking system that Welsh was using at GE where officers are ranked for performance. If there are 10 officers on a ship, the CO will rank them from 1 to 10 with 1 being the highest. Now all 10 officers might be really good, but the ranking system forces the CO to list the officers from bad to great even if there are no bad officers. The officers at the bottom are in trouble though they might be good officers. I have lived with this sort of stupidity for decades and have seen how destructive it is for an organization. At first, this process works to get rid of the deadwood, but eventually there is no deadwood, and the organization starts loosing very valuable people who simply cannot be replaced.
...

That's called Stack-Ranking and yup, it plays out exactly like you've described. Had many good coworkers on high functioning teams leave companies and join us because while their work was solid they couldn't compete with other people on the team who would live at work. I also know many companies where the bottom 9/10 were mandated to be let go even if their work was up to par. I'll give you one guess how that impacts morale.

The good news is that most places now seem to be coming around on the idea but sad to hear that it's still institutionalized in some cases.
 
/ A Question for Sailors
  • Thread Starter
#254  
I have a really dumb question ... how is it possible that a USN destroyer with all of its advanced radar and warning systems fail to detect a cargo ship as big as 4 football fields? That doesn't seem possible! :confused3:

That's been the topic of most of the previous posts in this thread.

Steve
 
/ A Question for Sailors #255  
That's been the topic of most of the previous posts in this thread.

Steve

Okay thanks for the info, I should have read the previous 251 posts before asking a question
 
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/ A Question for Sailors #257  
I wonder what was in the crushed area ? Fuel, supplies, machinery spaces, galley, mess, laundry or what ?

Since 10 sailors were apparently drowned, I'm going to guess it was a berthing compartment (i.e. sleeping area)
 
/ A Question for Sailors #258  
/ A Question for Sailors #259  
I've been on six aircraft carriers at sea during my 21 year Navy career and non have been hit. Underway refueling and unreps (underway replisments) taking on food, supplies, weapons, etc is the best time to play bumper ship when two or more ships steam beside each other for hours at a time conected by fuel lines and wire rope while withend 100 feet of each other at 10 knots or more.

mark
 
/ A Question for Sailors #260  
I've been on six aircraft carriers at sea during my 21 year Navy career and non have been hit. Underway refueling and unreps (underway replisments) taking on food, supplies, weapons, etc is the best time to play bumper ship when two or more ships steam beside each other for hours at a time conected by fuel lines and wire rope while withend 100 feet of each other at 10 knots or more.

mark

Yeah, but we can't forget the Independence hit a can...the Belnap, IIRC, during maneuvers.

I deployed on the Saratoga...that one of your ships?
 

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