A Question for Sailors

[smstonypoint]

How can anyone think this was an accident? Two American war ships were rammed by foreign merchant ships in three months? The USS John McCain was just accused by China of violating China and international law by it's activity in the South China sea. The USS Fitzgerald was in the South China sea just before it was rammed.

I can think of two reasons right off the top of my head.

1. Although details are lacking, the Navy has just as much admitted that the Fitzgerald was at fault in the first collision. See this link posted by Garandman:
Navy Punishes Leadership of USS Fitzgerald Following Deadly Collision Off Japan - NBC News.

2. We don't know any details regarding the second collision.

Steve

 

[rustyshakelford]

How can anyone think this was an accident? Two American war ships were rammed by foreign merchant ships in three months? The USS John McCain was just accused by China of violating China and international law by it's activity in the South China sea. The USS Fitzgerald was in the South China sea just before it was rammed.

Exactly. Our ships are being targeted.

I can think of two reasons right off the top of my head.

1. Although details are lacking, the Navy has just as much admitted that the Fitzgerald was at fault in the first collision. See this link posted by Garandman:
Navy Punishes Leadership of USS Fitzgerald Following Deadly Collision Off Japan - NBC News.

2. We don't know any details regarding the second collision.

Steve

Of course they are blaming the officers. They can't publicly admit it was electronic terrorism and expose our flaws. Unfortunately some good mens careers will be the extra casualties and those that perished will be blamed on innocent men

Brett

 

[dmccarty]

How can anyone think this was an accident? Two American war ships were rammed by foreign merchant ships in three months? The USS John McCain was just accused by China of violating China and international law by it's activity in the South China sea. The USS Fitzgerald was in the South China sea just before it was rammed.

Actually, there have been three collisions, the one that gets forgotten, most likely because there were no deaths, was when the Lake Champlain cruiser was hit by a South Korean trawler a few months back. My assumption on that one was that the cruiser "saw" the trawler but the cruiser was not going to move to avoid a collision since it was part of the screen to an aircraft carrier. I have not seen a report that says my assumption was right or wrong.

Why would one think this was anything other than yet another collision?

The USN has had many groundings and accidents in the last few years. A submarine ran into a sea mount, a ship ran into shallow water off of Hawaii, and a mine sweeper ran up on a reef. These were simply complete failures to navigate their vessels. No excuses what so ever in having this happen. None.

If the Chinese know where our ships and subs are located, their heading, and can then move reefs and sea mounts in front of USN vessels, well we better start learning how to speak Putonghua.

The USN has had multiple collisions between it's own vessels over the last few years as well. A USN sub surfaced into a Japanese trawler off Hawaii killing many of the vessel's crew. This was just an absolute failure on the part of the CO and crew.

I am not anti USN but they have a problem and I think the problem is up the chain of command from the ships COs.

Added this for clarification on my part. The naval services have always held COs accountable for what happens on THEIR ships, and for good reason, since historically, COs could inflict serious punishments, including death on their crew. The ships had no ability to communicate back to shore in any meaningful sense so everything rested on the CO's shoulders. It was, and is, a position of great power and responsibility. However, if the CO is told to charge into the valley of death, and looses the ship as a result, is the responsibility the CO or those who ordered the ship on a suicide mission? Now this is an extreme example of what is happening of course, but I do wonder if the ships officers and crews are being told to do too much with too little time and training. If that is the case, the problem lies above the CO but the CO still shares some responsibility.


Here is a link to a merchant marine captain who has interesting comments that I think get to the heart of the problem:

Red Over Red, The Failure Of U.S. Navy Leadership – gCaptain

Later,
Dan

 

[xcgreene]

Actually, there have been three collisions, the one that gets forgotten, most likely because there were no deaths, was when the Lake Champlain cruiser was hit by a South Korean trawler a few months back. My assumption on that one was that the cruiser "saw" the trawler but the cruiser was not going to move to avoid a collision since it was part of the screen to an aircraft carrier. I have not seen a report that says my assumption was right or wrong.

Why would one think this was anything other than yet another collision?

The USN has had many groundings and accidents in the last few years. A submarine ran into a sea mount, a ship ran into shallow water off of Hawaii, and a mine sweeper ran up on a reef. These were simply complete failures to navigate their vessels. No excuses what so ever in having this happen. None.

If the Chinese know where our ships and subs are located, their heading, and can then move reefs and sea mounts in front of USN vessels, well we better start learning how to speak Putonghua.

The USN has had multiple collisions between it's own vessels over the last few years as well. A USN sub surfaced into a Japanese trawler off Hawaii killing many of the vessel's crew. This was just an absolute failure on the part of the CO and crew.

I am not anti USN but they have a problem and I think the problem is up the chain of command from the ships COs. Here is a link to a merchant marine captain who has interesting comments that I think get to the heart of the problem:

Red Over Red, The Failure Of U.S. Navy Leadership gCaptain

Later,
Dan

Spot on Dan,

here is a closing quote from the article linked:

"This incident, like all maritime incidents before it, was the result of an insidious compilation of events (e.g. AIS systems or steering gear malfunctions) coupled in time with human mistakes and failure. But the mistakes of the junior officers pale in comparison to the mistakes made by senior Naval leadership (e.g. ignoring the concerns of junior officers and American merchant mariners) and, unlike the chain of command above Master, many of those junior officers are young and have time left in their career to learn from those mistakes and share them after being reassigned to another place in the fleet. That is, if they were given the chance. Given the current leaderships lack of confidence in their ability, that chance appears to be highly unlikely."

 

[dmccarty]

To give one an idea how busy the waterway is in the Malacca Straights and near Singapore, here is a screen shot from MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic



You can click on the image to make it readable.

The ships are picked up on AIS which is a VHF transmitter/receiver system. Some private vessels only have a receiver so their vessel will NOT be shown, and many small boats do not run AIS at all. To put it another way, the image only shows the vessels transmitting AIS data so there are many, more boats in the area do not show up no AIS. They might show up on radar but not all boats will show up on radar.

Later,
Dan

 

[RoyJackson]

They didn't say that when the second aircraft hit the twin towers.

Those aircraft weren't US Navy...
"Navair" is short for Naval Aviation. When there is a spurt of accidents, the fleet (aircraft) may be grounded until a root cause can be determined...this is referred to as a Safety Stand Down

 

[smstonypoint]

To give one an idea how busy the waterway is in the Malacca Straights and near Singapore, here is a screen shot from MarineTraffic: Global Ship Tracking Intelligence | AIS Marine Traffic


You can click on the image to make it readable.

The ships are picked up on AIS which is a VHF transmitter/receiver system. Some private vessels only have a receiver so their vessel will NOT be shown, and many small boats do not run AIS at all. To put it another way, the image only shows the vessels transmitting AIS data so there are many, more boats in the area do not show up no AIS. They might show up on radar but not all boats will show up on radar.

Later,
Dan

Dan,

Here's a larger version of your attachment.

I haven't seen any details on the collision, including its location on the chart. I don't know whether the CO and other senior officers were on the bridge in such busy waters, but they should have been.

Steve

 

[riptides]

This discussion has drifted off course into "(Un)Friendly Politics" waters. Let's steer it back to navigational issues.

Steve

Was the McCain at rest during the collision? I have not been following this.

 

[smstonypoint]

Was the McCain at rest during the collision? I have not been following this.

I just read this.

The McCain suffered a steering failure as the warship was beginning its approach into the Strait of Malacca, causing it to collide with a commercial tanker, a Navy official told CNN.
The official said it was unclear why the crew couldn't use the ship's backup steering systems to maintain control.

Earlier, another US Navy official told CNN there were indications the destroyer experienced a loss of steering right before the collision, but steering had been regained afterward.
Swift lauded the "damage control efforts of the crew," such as helping injured sailors and fighting to control the flooding and stability of the ship.
"John S. McCain was up and running as an operational ship almost immediately after the collision. It was quite extraordinary," he said.

USS John McCain: 'Some remains' of missing 1 sailors found after collision - CNNPolitics

Steve

 

[k0ua]

Again, I am not much of a conspiracy guy, buuut.... "a loss of steering right before the collision, and regain of steering right after".. Um.... boy, I would sure check that out really good and see if there was any way it could be hacked. It seems incredible, but...