A Grey Area

[mrtractor]

I got this idea that for the sake of a compact or mini or small or how about to put it simply anything under 4 tons, that a TLB is a better choice over a backhoe loader.
Now I had been posting a little about this recently so if you encounter my others, repeat yourself here as I hope to stir up the.
I am considering what I think you all call a 35 hp "grey market" tractor. (see the atachment now) price and weight are a factor to me. SO IS Loading and backhoeing.
It is being said to me that a TLB cant use its FEL to full capacity with a backhoe attached. What !?
So the deal is pending wether a fabricated subframe can make this dog hunt.
I dont get it, please explain this to me. Why does it seem to me to look like a duck and fly like a chicken? I mean I want to dig the. with the FEL and if need be turn around and use the BH to clear they way for the FEL to turn around and dig somemore. What is the diference between a mini backhoe loader and a TBL when it comes to digging with the loader.
Does a LOader bucket dig in either case ? Does the term LOADER bucket mean to dig with or just load ?
But again, if i dig with the backhoe on a tractor they tell me I cant turn around and remove the loose earth else I risk breaking the tractor in half the way I did my Jinma. Basically I am talking about driving into the ground they way you would to dig a basment or grading.
To recap the Jinma, I got a refund because it failed many times under warranty up to and including when I snapped it in half, because the fully loaded FEL free fell as the control valve was inferior. Come to find out, everybody operates them this way ! The heavier the load the more touchy the control ! shocking.. Any way, I just want to know what is going on in evryones head about now on these TLB and what does it do compared to a mini or compact backhoe loader like an Allmand bros, jcb mini, terrimite, whatever else.

 

[mrtractor]

I have been giving this way too much thought as I embark on spending what little bit of money I can spare. A fool and his money. I can justify a full size 8 ton backhoe loader and I sure cant get the best money can buy mini. So I am looking for the compromise. It seems to be a HD TLB But the more I think about digging with the FEL and Lifting withe the FEL, I wonder if I am expecting too much. They say it can lift just under 1400 lbs. they tell me its breakout force and such, why do I feel like I am still going to break it ? I've learned the hard way the difference in metals. Torque and towing. I even learned hoe to how. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif I just don't know what came first the tractor or the backhoe.

 

[mrtractor]

I learned some guy invented the FEL to clean out his chicken coupe. I also know that even the experts dont know what came first the chicken or the egg. Personally, I first thought a chicken coupe was a two door hard top chicken. But thats just me.


If I am missing a thread on this please link me to it.
It seems like to me, I could spend my whole life trying to find the best way to dig without using my back with a shovel.

 

[mark777]

I'm not sure what your asking...or if your asking? You've listed so many different types of equipment, and I'm wondering if your question is which one will do it all?

I've also heard some of the horror stories about structural failure and high porosity in the metals used in Chinese tractors, but know of no like failures in 25+ year old grey market equipment.

Your post suggests your search for a particular TLB that is big enough to do breakout work, trench and stump removal with adequate power...but small enough to load and go on a 16'-18' trailer. I'm not sure if any one piece of equipment will do that.

Mark

 

[VicByskal]

Well, I'm going to attempt a reply with my own thoughts based on several years experience selling compact gray market tractors, upfitting them with loaders and back hoes and talking to people daily needing this type of equipment.

I think that for what you're needing to do, or wanting to do (dig a basement) you're going to damage that tractor. Compacts with loaders are great "pushers" and poor diggers.

The "break out force" of the loader is not the lift capacity of the loader, and as you now know, a rapidly decending bucket of dirt stopped just above the ground will "shock" the tractor, often with catastrophic results.

I am of the opinion , judging by the type of service repairs I see, that if a customer has been told the newly installed loader on their tractor has a lift capacity of 680lbs, they'll try to lift 1900 with it. Or they'll lift something "off centre" twisting the tractor or loader frame.

I see way too many bent frames, bent hydraulic cylinders, buckets warped in the middle etc, from inexperienced or gung ho operators using their equipment well beyond the
designed limitations of it. And I only sell/service gray market product!

All these gray market tractors regardless of manufacture, were made to rototill. That's it. And on soft, flat, sandy soil at that! No loaders, no mowers, no back hoes. Doesn't mean they won't or can't do anything else. Just means that a certain degree of common sense must be used in operating the tractor and the equipment hooked up to it.

May also mean that a full sub frame be utilized, as well as ballasting and installation of a ROPS.

Vic

 

[mrtractor]

I am not sure of what you just said either.
I appreciate your sympathy with regards to my first tractor being of chinese made metal. But I am gonna argue some on the one size fits all theory. Just to prove a point. I dont want to start a war because of my ignorance so forgive me and my next few posts for I know not what I say. Here goes.
You say you know of no such breakage on a grey market tractor in your 25+years. Well, that helps me feel better about the purchase I am about to make. A purchase to the end that I can have my cake and eat it too, but up to a point.
If there is a limit to how hard or how big, then I gonna find it the hard way. No one advertises honestly about thier machines's tolerances. I understand residential use and commercial use. But if I purchase a residentially rated item, and use it all day, it should produce the same result. Worn yes but not broken. Will it do it or not ?
How "big" a tlb do you need to break out comperable to what they say a "mini backhoe" can ? So yes I am trying to do it all with one machine. /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
I plan to offer as much power as I can carry on my 4 ton 23 foot trailer, pulled by my 3/4 ton 3900lb duelly diesel truck that can tow 12500. Its a Ford and guess what, I am told the 1 ton doesnt tow any more then it does. Chevy I am told tows a little more. If I need to buy a Chevy to do it all then so be it. But I think if a machine can trench then it should pull a stump out if it has to. If it can lift or load, then it should also break ground out in front of itself if it has to.
My concern for this came about when it was suggested to me that a TLB can only work its backhoe because the weight of the backhoe is too much for it to max out the FEL. Likewise, if you are gonna max out the FEL, you need take the backhoe off the rear. I am told you cant FEL with the backhoe still attached unless a additional subframe is introduced. I am told a KUbota has this additional support and can operate one with the other.
Again, to us lamen, if it looks like a duck and they are selling you a duck why guess whether it floats and just go down to the water. (huh!)
One friend tells me "Your trying to make chicken soup out of chicken." Another observastion I made is that some FEL capable equiptment doesnt allow the Bucket to drop below the front wheels. These are not designed to "break out" and are therefore too small for my needs.

 

[mrtractor]

I thank you for posting. I hope to learn more from you.
It seems I am coming off gungho. Well that may be true. But I thought I was buying a tractor and not a cheap watch when I bought that jimna jinma whatever. I dont care if I cant pronounce it , but it should do what it was designed to do and not be apparently a static model of somthing else. Now perhaps what I need now is a definition of or the difference between a TLB and a backhoe. Bare in mind, I am talking about compact or min or anything under 8000lbs.
I aint ready to take on the 16000lb crowde just yet.
Again, I may not want to dig a basement but if it can grade, then it should be able to dig a basement if it has to.
I can appreciate balance. I my self am very coordinated and in case you havent noticed there are few typos in here. However, the same way they say "if you build it they will come" why cant I say "if I break it I will fix it" ?
Will this Hinomoto meet my expectations if it had a what did you call it a full sub frame ?
Let me get this straight, it would have a frame, a subfram then a full subframe. Is there more that need be added to this item to make it do what it looks like it can do ?
I believe this is the fairest a consumer can be when he is after his next victom of a TLB instead of what they call a mini backhoe loader. The TLB can also cut grass, box grade, post hole dig, ect.ect.. or can it ?

 

[mrtractor]

I wish I had time to make a graphic for this discussion.
It would show me on a TLB pushing into the ground until either the bucket was full or the thing stopped. Then turn around and use the hoe to unearth that what stopped it and then turn around again and continue to fill the FEL.
Big (4 ton) or small (?) I dont get the difference if they both have a LB (4X4) and conditions were tolerable.
Its the John Henry theory. I saw these little excavators and thought for the money, I can buy many shovels and rockrakes and probly out do that machine, but for a hadicapped person that'd be perfect for planting a garden.

 

[Tractors4u]

I will try to be brief and straight to the point. The front end loader is a remarkable scooping device. It will dig some, but you will be hard pressed to put the bucket down in to virgin soil and fill the bucket. You will either spin the tires or kill the engine. A tooth bar will make it dig better but that does not change the fact that it is a front end loader and not a front end digger. I have an area of rich loose top soil that I can dig into with my 32 hp Deere and fill the bucket each time. I can move 10 yards over and and I am lucky to get half of the bucket filled. It is just the nature of the beast.

A true, Tractor Loader Backhoe is different than a compact tractor that has had a loader and backhoe added to it. Take a close look at a true TLB, everything is built heavier and stronger.

Now for my opinion of the tractor you have pictured. I have had 3 or 4 Hinomoto 2304s. I love those tractors. However 2 of them suffered broken gears in the front axle from over aggressive front end loader work. I realize the one pictured is a 2804, but be careful anyway.

 

[mrtractor]

Thank you for your post and input. It would seem to me that your are inbetween this issue as I am. Even though you went straight to the point. I realize I might be over stating this issue, but it seems to now be on the table whether an FEL can dig or not dig. I got confused again about your terminology as far as a true TLB verses a compact tractor.
The model I am proposing would be likely a compact tractor and not a true TLB, Tor F ?
It seems a FEL, from what I am hearing, could dig out if the ground is loose. Well, if I could loosen up ground with the hoe, then why souldnt I be able to turn around and remove the loose earth ?
I dont like hearing about the gear breaking. That makes twice now that I heard of this. I saw an ad for one the guy said it is listed as a 2wd but is a 4x4 with a broken gear in it. Did you repair it, is it typical, as you said agresive digging may be the cause, isnt it a hardened steel gear or what ?
Do I need buy a larger model tractor or what a mini backhoe loader. I guess, I could be asking what do I need to buy to do the same thing an 8 ton backhoe can do but on a smaller scale at 8,000 lbs. or under. I thought TLB meant any tractor with a FEL and BH on it that was cabable of breaking ground with both.

I was wrong about my trailer length, it is a 16 foot deck but is 23' overall. And rated 4 tons.

For the next post, please assume I know enough to be careful with all aspects of a dig or a job and suggest whether or not, the Hinomoto2804 35 hp, can be expected to produce a large enough hole that might be used a *basement for lack of a better term. Grading is more likely what I want to see it do alot of. But again I feel if it can grade it should also be able to go further in.
I apologize for my lack of clarity, please continue to virtually beat this into my head. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif