93 octane or 87 Octane NO Ethanol

[N80]

As I've stated on many similar threads, my truck runs much better with more ready power when I put in a full tank of ethanol free.

I doubt very seriously most of us can subjectively notice significant performance gains between the fuel types in a new or well maintained modern vehicle. I know that I can't make any real subjective judgement regardless of the vehicle or the fuel. On the road or the race track. Maybe you can. But I used to swear all my vehicles ran better after a good wash and wax. The mind is a powerful thing and so is the placebo effect.

 

[TMGT]

I doubt very seriously most of us can subjectively notice significant performance gains between the fuel types in a new or well maintained modern vehicle. I know that I can't make any real subjective judgement regardless of the vehicle or the fuel. On the road or the race track. Maybe you can. But I used to swear all my vehicles ran better after a good wash and wax. The mind is a powerful thing and so is the placebo effect.

Doing a lot of dyno work I can tell you that the BSFC does go up with ethenol fuels noticeably, I can't remeber the exact numbers but it would be noticeable if you were to hand calculate it in a vehicle. Vehicles are very efficient but can't compensate for lost btu in fuel. The only time I've seen the gap close is with higher ethanol blends that have a higher octane and can utilize higher cylinder pressures from forced induction for higher compression, then you'll see the gap narrow.

 

[N80]

I don't know what BFSC is. But my point is not that there is no difference. My point is that most of us won't feel the difference in performance. Especially with typical road use. If you race or time trial and you're really good and really consistent you might see it in lap times but still probably not in the seat of your pants.

 

[TMGT]

BSFC= brake specific fuel consumption

 

[N80]

BSFC= brake specific fuel consumption

I still don't know what it means.:laughing:

 

[aczlan]

I still don't know what it means.:laughing:

It's the amount of work that it can do with a particular amount of fuel.
So if the engine is putting out 100 horsepower continuously, it's how much fuel it will use to do that.

Aaron Z

 

[woodlandfarms]

As the op my small engines are saws trimmers mowers. I run non eth because I have had huge problems with gumming. I travel for work. Usually gone 3 to 4 months at a time. I was running eth A few years ago I left for two weeks and came back nearly a year later. 5 engines in the shop.

As for distance. I have to drive 27 miles for non eth. The coop has 87 and the chevron got the 93.

 

[MossRoad]

As the op my small engines are saws trimmers mowers. I run non eth because I have had huge problems with gumming. I travel for work. Usually gone 3 to 4 months at a time. I was running eth A few years ago I left for two weeks and came back nearly a year later. 5 engines in the shop.

As for distance. I have to drive 27 miles for non eth. The coop has 87 and the chevron got the 93.

If you're going to let them sit, I'd suggest either running them out of fuel, or putting fuel shut-off valves on them, then running them out of fuel, and no matter what, use Stabil in your fuel, since you don't know when the next time you'll be running them is. As mentioned, I've used Stabil in my Briggs powered generator for years. Works great. Give it a try. It's cheaper than non-ethanol fuel in the long run. You're bringing home fuel in cans anyway. Just a simple matter of dosing the empty can before fill up.

 

[paulfun9]

I don't know what BFSC is. But my point is not that there is no difference. My point is that most of us won't feel the difference in performance. Especially with typical road use. If you race or time trial and you're really good and really consistent you might see it in lap times but still probably not in the seat of your pants.

Just because you cant feel it doesn't mean there is no difference.

Many people simply don't have a good feel for performance but you would be surprised at how many of us do.

 

[TMGT]

I use Stabil along with non ethenol fuel, I've still had problems in the past with Stabil and E10, I haven't tried the additives designed for ethanol. I figure if I have to treat the ethenol then why buy it in the first place, the small premium for non ethenol fuel is worth it for my OPE. Draining/Running equipment out of fuel everytime just isn't always practical for me and even then it's not a guarantee I won't have issues.

 

[Monster5601]

I've been running 87 octane 10% ethanol in ALL of my machines (cars, trucks, tractors, lawn mowers, garden tractors, snow blowers, chainsaws, weedeaters, power washer, ice auger, etc... ), since the early 80's.... and I keep my vehicles until they rust apart. So this is a long-time study on my part. I've had exactly ONE 20 cent fuel line go bad in ONE chainsaw in 37 years. The only one I ever treat with Stabil is my generator. And it sits for years with the same fuel in it.... and it starts every time.

You certrainly are unique, the first person I've ever heard of that didn't have issues with (untreated) ethanol poisoned gas in small enines (chainsaw, trimmer, etc).

 

[N80]

Just because you cant feel it doesn't mean there is no difference.

That is pretty much exactly what I said.

Many people simply don't have a good feel for performance but you would be surprised at how many of us do.

You might be right. You might be one of those special people. But the truth is, unless you are pushing an engine in a repeatable and consistent way you are unlikely to be able to sense performance gains since most of those gains are going to be felt at the extremes. As a track day instructor I'm in a pretty good position to push an engine to its limits frequently and in a repeatable (laps) and consistent way. As mentioned, I still do not see, feel or hear any difference between 10% ethanol and zero ethanol either at peak torque (4800 rpm) or peak horsepower for my car (7000 rpm). Maybe I'm just not good at it and that is certainly possible.

Now, in a race engine, tuned for a certain type of fuel, I think performance changes would be obvious.

 

[N80]

You certrainly are unique, the first person I've ever heard of that didn't have issues with (untreated) ethanol poisoned gas in small engines (chainsaw, trimmer, etc).

I've never had any issues with ethanol gas in any of my small engines. My Echo chainsaw, Stihl chainsaw and string trimmer have been running fine for a good 10-15 years with infrequent use, using ethanol gas for their whole lives. Cheap generic lawnmowers as well. My oldest one recently died but it had numerous issues related to physical abuse.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not championing ethanol in gas. I think it is the dumbest thing we've done in decades. I'm just saying I haven't had any problems. I'm also not advising against using good gas or Stabil. Based on advice I got here at TBN my standard process is to get a 5 gallon can of regular 10% ethanol gas and mix it immediately with Stabil for use in my small engines. Yes, you have to pay for Stabil but I'd rather pay them than pay the oil companies for ethanol free gas since they are the ones putting the ethanol in.

 

[Toyboy]

I've never had any issues with ethanol gas in any of my small engines. My Echo chainsaw, Stihl chainsaw and string trimmer have been running fine for a good 10-15 years with infrequent use, using ethanol gas for their whole lives. Cheap generic lawnmowers as well. My oldest one recently died but it had numerous issues related to physical abuse.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not championing ethanol in gas. I think it is the dumbest thing we've done in decades. I'm just saying I haven't had any problems. I'm also not advising against using good gas or Stabil. Based on advice I got here at TBN my standard process is to get a 5 gallon can of regular 10% ethanol gas and mix it immediately with Stabil for use in my small engines. Yes, you have to pay for Stabil but I'd rather pay them than pay the oil companies for ethanol free gas since they are the ones putting the ethanol in.

Because it's EPA mandated!!!

 

[N80]

[/B]

Because it's EPA mandated!!!

Yep. We can all make stupid decisions, even disastrous one, but to mandate a clearly detrimental and harmful decision without the consent of the people or even due process usually requires an organisation (EPA) that pretty much does not answer to anyone.

 

[buickanddeere]

What do you mean by small engines? I'm pretty sure my newest (cheap) lawnmower says 87 only but I won't swear to that. If you mean small car engines then I would say that is generally true as most high revving fours and sixes are high compression engines. In my 350z the computer will ****** or advance the timing depending on the fuel you put in it. That is not to say you should run 87 in it (I don't) but it can handle it with performance decreased by the computer. Most of the time I run 89. I run the highest octane I can on trips and at the racetrack. As for ethanol in a car engine I don't think it makes a bit of difference if you're burning it up. Leaving it sitting in a car (or lawnmower) is where the problems come....as I understand it....which is probably not very well.

Chainsaws,lawn mowers,snowmobiles, generators, high pressure washer , string trimmers etc when in regular use. Long term seasonal storage is with 100LL, that stuff doesn't gum up anything.

 

[N80]

I love that the U.S. is a nation of law. I hate, however, that we feel like we have to legislate EVERYTHING. But if legislation is the only way to get things done I think that if the EPA mandates that gasoline producers must produce a certain percentage of gas with a certain percentage of ethanol in it, that someone should legislate that they cannot charge more for similar gasoline without ethanol.

I am officially an angry old white guy. Get of my lawn.

 

[Toyboy]

Might as well add these stupid new no spill gas cans to your EPA mandate rant :thumbsup:

 

[N80]

Might as well add these stupid new no spill gas cans to your EPA mandate rant :thumbsup:

I just had a little stroke _thinking_ about that!

 

[MossRoad]

You certrainly are unique, the first person I've ever heard of that didn't have issues with (untreated) ethanol poisoned gas in small enines (chainsaw, trimmer, etc).

Many people I know have fuel related troubles with small engines. I rarely do, if ever. From what I've gathered, the fuel related troubles start as soon as they touch the adjustments on the carb... it's all downhill from then on. They'll never get it back running correctly. And they toss it in the corner and buy a new one. I do have electrical problems with coils, pickups, plug wires, etc... once in a while. But rarely fuel issues, if ever. As I mentioned, I've had the fuel line turn to mush on one chainsaw. And my fuel pump went out on my tractor, but that's the vacuum diaphragm. And that's about it.

I buy 87 octane 10% ethanol in three 6 gallon cans and one 2 gallon can at a time. My tractor gets used about 50 hours per year, so about 60 gallons per year mowing, brush cutting, snow plowing and firewood gathering, plus misc other uses. My weedeater and chainsaws I'll say I mix maybe 5-10 gallons 50:1 per year. Generator gets about a quart run through it a year for testing (knock on wood). Power washer maybe 3-5 gallons per year minimum, more depending on projects. Log splitter maybe 3-4 gallons per year doing about 6 cords. Tiller uses a gallon at most. Push mower uses maybe 1-2 gallons per year. So, about 80 gallons per year minimum and maybe 100 maximum for the past 16 years. Before that, I used quite a bit more, as the IH2500b tractor loader was a 4 cylinder 50hp gas engine with 20 gallon tank. It was HST and burned 2-3 gallons per hour.

The only engine I ever ran anything other than 87 octane 10% ethanol in was my '77 RD400 that was highly modified for drag racing. I worked at the airport at the time, so I had access to 100LL at cost, which helped quite a bit as I was running higher than stock compression at ridiculous RPMS.

Every car, truck, motorcyle or gas powered equipment I've ever owned since early 80's have all run just fine on 87 octane 10% ethanol.

I really and truly believe many problems people believe are caused by 87 octane 10% ethanol are caused by other issues, like monkeying with the carb adjustments, improper mix ratio, dirty air filters, no air filters, bad spark plug gap, bad spark plug wires, bad spark plug, weak coil, improperly adjusted valves, improper crankcase ventilation, plugged fuel filter, dirt in the gas tank, dirt in the funnel, improperly vented fuel tanks..... or maybe I'm just blessed due to clean living.... My apologies to Cecil Turtle...