530 ck wont start

[joebob]

I have a Case 530 CK that might be used only maybe 2 or 3 times a year. It would always start OK, but the other day it would'nt. I'm thinking it might need bleeding, but I never had to do it before. I did bleed at the 2 filters, & the pump inlet, no joy. It's a Roosa Master pump, it has a bleed plug on the bott, of the pump. I have a new pump to put on, but the timing procedure sounds a bit fussy. I don't see any way to revolve the engine other than the starter. If I should replace the pump, are there things to do before removing the pump to avoid the timing procedure in the Case manual? Any help greatly appreciated
Cheers
Joebob

 

[SantasForest]

Whats in it? A cummins?

 

[TraderMark]

Joebob,
After you've bled the system at the filters and at the pump inlet, you'll probably need to loosen each injector line at the injector and bleed those lines too.
Be careful about removing any plugs from a RoosaMaster/Stanadyne pump. Most of those pumps do not have bleeder screws, they were bled at the pump inlet. And a bleeder screw is not going to be at the bottom. Air rises. A bleeder screw will be at the top.

As for changing out the pumps, are you going to leave the pump drive shaft with the engine when you remove the old pump or are you going to remove the shaft with the pump?
It can be done either way, each way having its own pros and cons.

Hope this helps.
Mark

 

[TraderMark]

Whats in it? A cummins?

The 530 Case had a 188 Case diesel. Predecessor to the Case/Cummins hybrids.

 

[SantasForest]

I was gonna say to check the fuel shut off solenoid.

 

[TraderMark]

No solenoid for fuel shut off on those old 530's. Manual shut off via cable. A quick check to verify cable operation would be a good idea.

I would loosen the injector lines and verify they have fuel passing through them before going much farther.

Mark

 

[joebob]

First, I will finish bleeding at the injectors. If I get no fuel, then what, install pump? I have the Case shop manual, & it looks like the pump shaft is attached to it's gear in the timing case, so it will remain. The shaft has a small hole on the end of the tang to match the hole in the slot on the pump, so you don't get it 180 degrees out. If I crank the engine so the timing marks on the pump line up before I remove it, can I set the new pump the same & install it without going thru the timing procedure? Do I need the special tool for the shaft seals? or I could make one if needed. It looks like a mini ring compressor.The pump I have for a replacement is a DBG FCC 431 27 A.J. 1900RPM. The pump on the engine has same #, but 1600 RPM. It looks to be new or rebuilt w/ seals intact. Whats the 1/4" pipe plug on the bott. for? Thanks you guys.

 

[TraderMark]

If this was my machine and I'd already established that I have full fuel flow through the filters and no air at the filters or pump inlet I'd next check for pump output by loosening the injector lines.

If I had no pump output I'd use the handle of a screwdriver and lightly tap the top cover of the pump. These pumps don't really like sitting for long periods of time. The metering valve can stick and sometimes a light tap can jar it loose.

If I still had no fuel output then I'd change the pump.

 

[TraderMark]

You are spot on with the pump change procedure. Line up the timing marks in the little window on the old pump before you remove it. Line up the marks in the window of the new pump before you install it.

As for the umbrella seals, lube them copiously with something like white lithium grease. Some people have great success using the special toil while others swear by using a blunt tipped screwdriver. Which ever method you use, use plenty is lube. Lube the bore of the pump as well and cross your fingers.

You may have to rotate the new pump to get the timing where you want it after you get her running.

 

[joebob]

A blunt tip screwdriver? How's that going to work to install the pump shaft in the pump? The tool in the book looks like a little cliplike thingy that works like a ring compressor to squeeze the seals, to slide the shaft into the pump. The book says if you roll the seals trying to slide the shaft in, throw the seals away, & get new ones. They make it sound like it might be a difficult job, & you need the tool. Sorry for all the fussy questions, I'm just wanting to be prepared ahead of time if it comes to that. Thanks Mark for your help.
Cheers
Bob

 

[TraderMark]

Those seals are very flexible and thin, so you must take care when installing them. Of course they are shaped like umbrellas and are installed back to back. The first one is the one you have to worry about the most since it's in the inverted position going into the pump body and it keeps diesel from entering the crankcase.
Some people slide the pump onto the shaft up to the seal, then take a smooth, blunt tipped, small screwdriver to press the seal's edge down, moving around the shaft as they go and tilting the pump just enough to get the edge of the seal into the pump bore as the screwdriver pushes it down. They do this until they've worked all the way around the shaft. I always have a couple of spares with me when I change a pump just in case.

The special tool is just a pair of small tongs with a portion of each leg fashioned into a half circle that's the same radius as the pump shaft. Slip the tool over the seal, squeeze the handles together to compress the seal, then slide the pump against the tool, carefully pushing the tool off the seal as you push the pump on. Once you have the first seal inside the pump, repeat the process for the second seal.

If you want to buy the tool, you should be able to get it from any diesel pump repair shop and it shouldn't cost too much.

 

[joebob]

I finally got the old pump out, a very difficult job indeed. I ended up removing exhaust manifold, all the tubes, & the fuel filter housing!! I never thought I would get the nut on the pump flange nearest the engine off, it would have been impossible w/ the fuel filter housing in place, I used a crow foot, & that just barely worked. I have a rebuilt pump that I've had for 25 yrs. that I was going to install, (it's got all the wire seals, the holes are plugged, & it's been in a heated enviornment), after all that work, I'm thinking I better have this thing checked, cuz I sure don't want to do this again.I called 2 places, one wouldnt test it unless he took the top off first, he said bout $81. The other guy said it would probably need all new seals, & would be $475!!! You can get rebuilts for bout $350, which I already have. I've seen seal kits for that pump for about $30, & there's a John Deere manual on rebuilding the DGB pump, just wonder if I should attempt to fix the old one, or just take a chance & install the rebuilt one anyway. What think?
Cheers
Bob

 

[TraderMark]

Wow. Tough call. 25 years is a long time even though the pump has been inactive, sealed and in a stable environment. I'm no expert on the internal seals in these pumps but I would have to think there's some deterioration there.

$475 to tear down, repair and reseal a 4 cylinder pump is about avg for around here. But like you, I've seriously considered doing my next one myself. If you do it yourself make sure to change the fiber gear inside to a metal one. It will save you money, time and headaches in the future.

If you're comfortable with your skills and with what you read in the manual I'd say give the pump off the 530 a rebuild yourself. At least you'll have a backup pump if the rebuild doesn't work.

 

[joebob]

I was looking at the repair manual & they talk about setting fuel delivery, governor, fuel pressure ect. on a test stand. You would'nt be able to do this yourself, so? Have a look at this excelent manual in pdf. igor.chudov.com/manuals/stanadyne-roosa-master/ How important is the adjustment issue?

 

[joebob]

Also notice the rotation of the pump, should be stamped on bott.

 

[joebob]

Could'nt find rotation stamped on bott., like it says on chudov. Anybody know?

 

[TraderMark]

Pump rotation is usually indicated on the metal plate fastened to the pump but I can't remember what the code is to determine rotation.

 

[joebob]

How important is the adjustment mentioned in the manual. It says if not set right, could damage engine!!

 

[joebob]

Had the pump rebuild & the injectors too, ($530). It's back together & running fine. Thanks for all your help, guys.
Cheers
Joebob

 

[TraderMark]

Glad to hear you got 'er running again!