5000 SF Pond Renovation (Muck Removal Via Gold Dredge)

[Industrial Toys]

Sorry. Yes I ramble. I did mistake your OP for suggesting that Turtles and Frogs didn't matter in your pond endeavours.

Our pond is very dark from Tanic (sp?) acid. A haven for Frogs and turtles and tiny fish, whatever they may be, but never more than tiny. Spring Fed, but part of a swamp. Probably, adding areation, especially, when the outflow stops flowing in the summer, would help with FISH, but it's not something I need as another project. So, it just is what it is.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Sorry. Yes I ramble. I did mistake your OP for suggesting that Turtles and Frogs didn't matter in your pond endeavours.

I re-read my post and I think I see the reason for the confusion. I had stated that there is no life in the pond beyond turtles and fish so I was not worried about releasing toxic gases into the water. When muck is disturbed it releases hydrogen sulfide gas which is a byproduct of the anaerobic digestion process. Therefore, if you have a mucky pond with fish in it, stirring up the muck or rapidly aerating it has the potential to wipe out all of the fish, so great care must be taken when removing the muck. I don't have any fish to begin with and frogs and turtles, being amphibians aren't really affected by H2S-they can simply go hang out in the swamp right next to the pond if it bothers them. Fish, however, don't have that choice. In any event, the goal is to get the water quality and habitat into much better shape by next spring at which time I will stock with the appropriate fish and await the return of various amphibians that inhabit the pond.

 

[big bubba]

I can't say I really understand what is going on here or what this has to do with the thread? Right now I have a mucky, buggy and not very healthy pond that ONLY supports frogs, turtles and leeches. What I'd like to have is a clearer, healthier and not so buggy pond that supports frogs, turtles AND fish that is as leech free as possible. I don't recall ever expressing that I wanted to get rid of the frogs and turtles ihdiesel73L

just responded to a post that misunderstood a comment on wildlife. tangents are to be expected in a forum like this. after all, i assume one of your pond objectives is to promote & attract wildlife

you didn't say whether the pond is spring fed or runoff. personally i'd go w/excavator as another poster mentioned. otherwise looks like you'll be investing a lot of time & money in a questionable outcome. an excavator will remove underlying muck that a pump cannot.
nonetheless, an interesting project that it seems you've researched quite a bit. good idea to post on the forum
be patient with tangental comments, part of the turf here best regards

 

[Industrial Toys]

Natures idea and ours of what constitutes a "healthy" pond are two entirely different things.

I still think the fish matter is all a matter of areation. No flowing water and no air equals no fish. My worry, if I ever got a windmill or such, is that having done that, now I feel the fish are my responsibility, and if that system fails, the fish will suffer and die.

 

[big bubba]

interesting read, OP may want to research before the project. as Industrial Toys mentioned, aeration is key. spring fed ponds tend to be better aerated. also check out the aquatic plant aerators. looks like you've already done your homework, you may consider the following links as well. best of luck

Pond Eutrophication | Pond Owner Magazine
The Best Oxygenating Pond Plants (Top 8 Plant Species) - Pond Informer

 

[IHDiesel73L]

you didn't say whether the pond is spring fed or runoff.

I guess you would consider it spring fed. Essentially a big hole was dug in what was a swamp where the water table was fairly close to the surface to begin with. Essentially the hole extends to a maximum depth of about 5'-6" below the water table. It does receive some runoff/sheet flow primarily from the north side. However, in the nearly three years we've been here the water level in the pond has never dropped more than 4" or so-even in the driest spells.

 

[Industrial Toys]

That EXACTLY describes our pond.

I didn't think springs amounted to any aeration to speak of.

We had the pond cleaned up twice. Drained water in the course of a few days with critters making a retreat into the swamp. Then bring in excavators. Really the only game in town. Had pond built out of a wet area with a TEREX 8230 that promptly got stuck and had to bring in a D8 to get it out. Fun! Back in 72.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

I didn't think springs amounted to any aeration to speak of.

Me either-I would be interested in learning more about that. I always assumed that water only became aerated by tumbling over rocks in a brook or splashing down into a pool, etc... However, I suppose that if the soil has some level of oxygen trapped in it that the water would absorb some as it percolated through.

 

[big bubba]

yes, my bad, spring fed does not necessarily mean more aeration
https://www.thepondguy.com/product/...-aerated-properly/learning-center-pl-aeration

 

[Industrial Toys]

Interesting. But as usual , sign up now, and not surprisingly, THEY have the solution to all the issues talked about.

 

[big bubba]

Interesting. But as usual , sign up now, and not surprisingly, THEY have the solution to all the issues talked about.

yup, basically a solicitation i noticed, but at least debunked my spring aeration theory & how pond temp could be indication of it's overall health. eutrophication is a natural cycle in a pond's health
i still can't help but think draining it & mechanically cleaning like you did is the way to go for a pond @ it's later stages of life cycle. the fact that OP's pond is water table/spring source is a big plus for the project. he should post images along the way. we love to create work & expense for others, one of the luxuries of retirement.
ok enough input from me, & best to the OP's project

 

[Industrial Toys]

I notice in my hot tub, it it hasn't been heated or stirred for a while, how there is a remarkable temperature variation in that little body of water from surface to bottom. I guess it's not spring fed so must be that other thing. Now I sound like Biden! lol

 

[Crazydad]

Based on the feedback I got here and some investigation I've done I'm backing off of the gold dredge idea and/or any real excavation at this point. I pulled the Fathers' Day card and got a bunch of time back at the pond yesterday and I ended up learning a lot. I don't think my muck/silt problem is as bad as I had originally suspected. Last year I had gone around in my canoe to try to get a sense of the depth and used a tape measure which wasn't all that effective. This time I used a 1" x 8' steel pipe which penetrated the muck layer and allowed me to find the true bottom. I'm still not sure how much muck and loose silt is there, but the pipe did allow me to determine that the pond has a very hard and rocky bottom. Utilizing a combination of the pipe and a tape measure I was able to measure depths of about 4' which are about 6-8' out from the banks and as much as 5'-6" to 6' in the middle. Using my old Sears fiberglass canoe as a work boat, I pulled a bunch of brush from the pond that seemed like it had started on land, drooped into the water and sprouted roots everywhere:

This photo is looking toward the more silted in end of the pond where runoff from the neighboring fields tends to sheet flow and/or follow a channel into the pond. I removed a bunch of the stuff that was growing IN the water but as you can see on the right and left sides there is still drooping vegetation. I plan on really aggressively working both sides with a chainsaw to get rid of a bunch of that stuff and clean up the banks.

The far side I'm going to leave alone for now because it is basically a wetland that probably serves to trap silt at that end rather than allowing it to flow into the rest of the pond. I figure one day when I have the $$$ I could rent a machine and scoop it out in a couple of buckets full and enlarge the pond another 10-20'. I just ordered these and a thermometer which will be here this week:

Muck Remover Pellets 1� lbs - Digest Pond Muck Fast

I plan on using the 1/4 acre dose which is double what I need at about an 1/8 of an acre, but the directions recommend that for older ponds. I'll try to distribute them as evenly as possible which shouldn't be too hard given the size of the pond. I'm also looking at aeration options, but the pond is about 225-250' from the nearest outlet. I figure the best option is a septic aerator pump and a long airline. Hopefully I can make a lot of progress this summer and into the fall. Of course if we have another winter like the last one I'll pretty much be able to work down there year round.

Thanks for posting pictures! I would cut all vegetation back 10 feet or more all the way around expect for larger trees you want to keep and make it so you can maintain it with a mower. It will help keep out anymore nutrients in the water and you will be able to see critters like snakes. It will grow back fast if you still need it for silt after you see what is going on with run off.

There is a thread on here where someone made a front attach rake that goes out like 8 feet here. Maybe you could do something similar with a blade instead for muck.

I would research septic pond aerators and put together my own kit with the LL80 pump(71 watts) or so and run some 12 gauge 100 foot extension cords to test. Make sure to mount the defuser on something high enough to keep it out of the muck.

Then get 25-50 hybrid bluegill/sunfish now to eat those lychees and something for the kids to look at. Mine will come up to eat the floating fish food, turtles too. Maybe some minnows too like 3-6 lbs to get the fish and echo system going and reproducing. Here in the some south feed stores have fish trucks come by and you buy them in bags with air blow in or maybe a local hatchery.

You can make a 3-4 foot wide dock going out 8 feet or so where the boat is by pounding in two posts in the water on the end.

On my pond it starts turning brown when things start grow underwater and the temps come up, the bacteria helps but without aeration does not last long and algae grows and causes more problems.

This should get you going for less than $1000 before dock, depending on your pump. Not bad for a fun summer project for the kids/family.

Full disclosure I am new to ponds, live in the hot south without snow and still learning so please take this with a grain of salt and keep posting pics to keep this thread going.

 

[IHDiesel73L]

Thanks for posting pictures! I would cut all vegetation back 10 feet or more all the way around expect for larger trees you want to keep and make it so you can maintain it with a mower. It will help keep out anymore nutrients in the water and you will be able to see critters like snakes. It will grow back fast if you still need it for silt after you see what is going on with run off.

I cut back some of the vegetation on the northeast corner yesterday and will eventually mow down all of the vegetation from that point around the bank to the southwest corner. That will eventually all be hardscaped with boulders/smaller rock from our property. The rest of the banks will be left alone with the exception of some shrubs that have actually grown over the bank and into the water. Those I'll cut back a bit, but otherwise that area should provide good cover/forage area:

Then get 25-50 hybrid bluegill/sunfish now to eat those lychees and something for the kids to look at. Mine will come up to eat the floating fish food, turtles too. Maybe some minnows too like 3-6 lbs to get the fish and echo system going and reproducing. Here in the some south feed stores have fish trucks come by and you buy them in bags with air blow in or maybe a local hatchery.

We have a hatchery about 10 minutes away that has been raising trout, bass, bluegills, catfish, etc...for over 100 years. I'm going there tomorrow to pick up 2,000 fathead minnows. Going to let them get established and then begin stocking bass and bluegill.

 

[Crazydad]

Look at some shiner minnows too as a mix, they are easier to see against the muck. The bluegill are only about a buck a piece and their mouths are small to eat the minnows. Ask the hatchery what they would do.

 

[big bubba]

once the pond renovation & stocked fish are in place, may consider 1 or 2 White Amur vegetation eating carp. be sure they are triploid (sterile) from the hatchery. i've had them in my 4 ponds for decades & get they get large. good idea to clear vegetation around the pond margins as suggested by Crazydad sounds like you're already doing that
best of luck w/your interesting project.
Using Grass Carp (White Amur) for Aquatic Weed Management in North Carolina | NC State Extension Publications

 

[IHDiesel73L]

once the pond renovation & stocked fish are in place, may consider 1 or 2 White Amur vegetation eating carp. be sure they are triploid (sterile) from the hatchery. i've had them in my 4 ponds for decades & get they get large. good idea to clear vegetation around the pond margins as suggested by Crazydad sounds like you're already doing that best of luck w/your interesting project.
Using Grass Carp (White Amur) for Aquatic Weed Management in North Carolina | NC State Extension Publications

In my state grass carp require a permit from the Fish and Wildlife service and I know that the hatchery I use will not sell them without the permit. I'm not sure how hard it is to get. That said, I've been doing a lot of weed removal on my own:

We also stocked 2,000 fatheads yesterday with plans to stock bass and bluegill later in the summer.

 

[Crazydad]

Wow looking good. Research pond rake or lake rake, they make hand rakes that cut the vegetation below the water line. It looks like the vegetation only goes a few feet out from the bank so you can get it from the bank. Everything green that goes into the water adds to the muck.

I can not see into the water but if You have underwater plants that run throughout the pond grass carp will help. They eat many different plants but not every kind and not any that is above the water. Permits are easy in most states as even though they are sterile its not 100% so they need to make sure your pond does not empty into a river or lake when it floods. They can get huge like two feet long. To remove them shoot them or net them. They can stir up mud when eating but that helps your muck tabs work. Get them 12 inches if the hatchery has them that big so they eat more.

I keep a galvanized small trash can by the pond wired closed with 40 pound bag of fish pellets at the pond for feeding fish.

Thanks again for the pics. I included one for you, hopefully next year you will have some large bass.

 

[big bubba]

your pond is fairly small & manageable. this is one of the best tools i've come across for in water vegetation removal. i use a power hedger in the water then a pitch fork to fling debris onto the shoreline. works great
been stocking my 4 ponds w/white amur (or grass carp) for 40 years. marginal vegetation is not always @ the top of their menu, but they are effective. state regulation makes sense
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[IHDiesel73L]

I traced back one of the "seeps" that feeds the pond over the last two days:

As opposed to a "spring" a seep occurs when groundwater flows until it his an impervious layer and is then forced to the surface:

Spring Development and Protection

Seeps are harder to develop than springs as they are more dispersed and the water expresses out of the ground over a wide area. My property lies directly on a limestone karst belt, so this water was flowing through the porous limestone until it probably hit some bedrock and the pressure forced it out of this hillside. I'm working on digging it out to see if I can get more flow:

I've looked at a few different ideas but one that seems to make sense to me is a kind of "reverse septic system" or french drain whereby you basically dig trenches into the waterbearing layer of the seep area and lay laterals of perforated pipe into a bed of gravel. The idea is that each lateral collects water and then drains it to a manifold that connects all of the laterals. The manifold is then connected to a delivery pipe that carries the concentrated flow to the pond. Concentrating the flow and piping it into the pond should accomplish two goals. First, if I can get a decent flow rate, I'll have a nice cascade into the pond which will help to boost DO levels. Second, the water is VERY cold-I didn't take a reading, but it's probably 55-60ｰF based on how uncomfortable it was to keep my hands in it for a long time. I plan on burying the pipe at least partially and then covering it with dirt and rock with the goal of keeping the water as cool as possible while it is traveling to the pond. Right now the water seeps out of the hillside and sheet flows through a swamp before it reaches the pond, and in the summer probably gets warmed quite a bit by the sun. My bottom temps at this point are holding at about 72ｰF which is not bad for this time of year, but I'm hoping that if I concentrate the flow of the seep that I can keep the bottom at not more than 70ｰF through the summer.