3rd Function Valve for Grapple on JD5420

[gary1978]

I went to my local JD dealer and asked what I needed to add a 3rd function electric over hydaulic valve to my JD 541 loader on my JD 5420 tractor so I can operate a grapple from the joy stick. They couldn't find anything in their "catalogs" that they said would work. They wanted me to add an additional rear remote and operate the grapple with that. I explained how I only had one arm on the right side of my body and it seemed a poor solution, but they said there was no other way to do it. I have read that the J.W. Long kit is the best way to do this, and I don't want to just install a diverter.
Does anyone know if there is a "factory" John Deere kit to add a 3rd function valve to the tractor/loader combo or should I just buy the J.W. Long kit?

 

[kennyd]

Does anyone know if there is a "factory" John Deere kit to add a 3rd function valve to the tractor/loader combo or should I just buy the J.W. Long kit?

Welcome to TBN...

There is no factory option. Get the WR Long kit or make it up yourself.

 

[J_J]

What could be anything more simple than this. Add a switch and your curl circuit becomes a grapple circuit..

https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=9-7852&catname=hydraulic

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Instruct/I9-7852.pdf

 

[Cidertom]

If you have a power beyond, you could try what I did in
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...g/206320-6th-selective-control-valve-4-a.html

The WR Long kit is a simple solution that works.

 

[gary1978]

I'm going to go with the W.R. Long kit. I've designed and built my own self-starting phase converter and a completed a few other interesting electrical projects, but I have no idea what a "snubber diode" is, so I guess I need to limit myself to more user-friendly installation kits.

I think I will have to connect the W.R. Long grapple (or third function) valve to the "Power Beyond" line to/from my current mid-mount loader valve. Is there any easy way to determine which line this is? There is a port on my loader valve marked with a "P", and it's on the top of the valve body. Is this the line I need to splice a "T" fitting to provide the power to the grapple valve, or is the gapple valve supposed to be plumbed in series with the loader valve? Any idea how to determine which of the two lines coming out of the bottom of the current mid-mount loader valve goes to the "tank" and can I just "T" into it as well from the grapple valve? maybe the W.R. Long kit will come with instructions. Nothing ever seems to come with instructions any more.

 

[J_J]

P is your pressure port, T is your tank port. Grapple valve goes in series.

 

[jcliburn]

Here's my experience installing a W.R. Long kit on a Kubota. It's long-winded, but it may be helpful to get an overview of the project.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/kubota-owning-operating/192572-w-r-long-kit-plus.html

 

[k0ua]

but I have no idea what a "snubber diode" is, so I guess I need to limit myself to more user-friendly installation kits.


I will take a stab at it: I haven't heard it called that, before but I think they mean a Reverse EMF protection diode. When you have a solenoid or relay coil and you energize it with DC, there is a magnetic field that builds up in the coil. When you remove the energizing voltage, the field collapses, and a reverse polarity Electro-Motive Force flows from the coil. If you place a diode in the proper direction such that it conducts from this reverse polarity, and shorts it out, I guess you could call this "snubbing" the voltage. The purpose of a protection diode such as this is to protect other circuits which share the same energizing voltage bus from this high reverse polarity "spike or pulse". A pretty simple thing to add across the windings of a a coil to afford a lot of protection. There you have my best guess.

James K0UA

 

[Cidertom]

K0UA has it correct. The term snubber diode is used some places, not all. Wiki has a more in depth discription if you care. The big issue here is the contacts on the control will get pitted fairly fast as the voltage is fairly high so the arc will be "long".

One thing I like about my handle install is the hand can rest comfortably for long periods.

Have fun

 

[AGGIE00]

Try LVB26101. I just installed it on my 5083e. Works great with my frontier grapple. It may be possible to retro it to your tractor.

 

[Cidertom]

Interesting development: While at JD today. I looked at the new tractors. The new tractors have the same style head as the 110 tlb - (minus) the switch assembly. The ability to lay the hand and leave it there, is valuable.

 

[gary1978]

Well I'm making some progress. Picked up the grapple and W.R. Long electric over hydraulic kit. (of course the hydraulic QDs were mismatched, but I expected that.) I also picked up the skid loader implement to JD 500 series loader adapter (Skid Steer Carrier) today from my JD dealer. (Bundle BW15626) I cannot figure out how to properly install it. The Skid Steer Carrier kit came with no instructions, no parts list and no pictures or drawings of what the completed assembly looks like. I found a pic on the net, but it is a head-on shot and does not show which links attach where. The kit came with two large greaseable pins, one snap ring, 3 washers 4 small retaining cross-pins and two funny "forks" with attaching bolts and nuts that I can find no possible use for. Why one snap ring and 3 washers? Without a parts list, I can't tell if I'm missing parts! No one at the dealership has ever seen one of these, and it sure wasn't what either of us expected to receive. Does anyone have any idea how I can get decent information on how these "skid steer carrier" assemblies are supposed to be installed or have any pictures of one that is properly installed that shows the orientation of the linkage to the loader frame from the side? Any idea what the two "forks" are for? I can get it "attached", but I'd really like to do it correctly.

 

[gary1978]

More adventures in Grapple Land. I did manage to physically install the Skid-Loader "adapter" sold to me by my JD Dealership. It was absolutely NOT designed to be mounted on a 541 loader. But after some custom pins, lots of spacers and significant machine work, I was able to get it installed. Then I went to start working on installing the J.W. Long electric over hydraulic 3rd function kit and it seems that my dealership may have ordered the wrong kit. I'll be speaking with the folks at the J.W. Long company to see what might have gone wrong. Seems they sent me a kit sized for a 3 cylinder tractor with the smaller hydraulic pump (less than 12 GPM flow rate) and my tractor is a 4 cylinder model with a significantly larger pump (15.9 GPM flow rate). The valve and bracket would not physically fit where the instructions said it was supposed to go either. The kit was described in the instruction sheet as a model 12VDO3S Valve Kit. I'll post what I hear after I talk to the J.W. Long folks.

 

[Zebrafive]

Bundle BW15626 is for the 553 loader. If there was (I think there was) a skid steer bundle for your 541 loader it may be obsolete and no longer listed.

The Service department can print out install instruction for any bundle. It should have a parts list and pictures of how to install. Even thou you got it mounted I would get the instructions from the dealer. The only problem I have had when getting bundle instructions is you will only be able to get the lastest version. If the bundle has been changed for any reason. the instructions may not match exactly.

The forked links you mention may be for a self leveling loader?

 

[gary1978]

I finally made new connector links with a 6.5" spacing instead of the 12" spacing of the originals and installed them. Now the proper range of motion is pretty much restored. I assembled the D05 size W.R. Long valve assembly and it went on pretty easy. I did have to elongate the mounting holes so the assembly would clear my loader frame. The instructions were pretty straight forward and the hoses actually fit without any need for additional fittings or adapters. I ordered the bulkhead hose kit and the hoses were just the right length to allow me to weld the bulkhead to the loader cross member in a very easily accessible location. The hoses on the Westendorf grapple were about 24" too short so I had some extensions made to reach the bulkhead fixture. Once I got it all hooked up I started to "exercise" it but not under load, to get the air out of the lines and ensure none of my custom linkage caused any trouble. Everything went fine until I opened the grapple fully, and then everything in the hydraulic system locked up. The function buttons on the control lever became inactive and my loader would not move and the grapple would not move. I could hear the engine loading up so I knew something was wrong so I shut off the tractor. I immediately heard a rather loud "clack" come from the new 3rd function valve I just installed, as it unloaded and became un-stuck. When I started the tractor, everything worked again, until I opened the grapple jaws all the way and the same thing happened. The 3rd function valve would stick in the "open" position and the excess pressure was venting through the relief valve, but nothing worked. All hydraulic cylinders were frozen in place. As soon as I shut off the tractor and restarted it, it all worked again. The malfunction did not occur when I switched the valve to move the grapple to the fully closed position. I could fully close it and then partially open it over and over with no problem. But when I opened it all the way, the valve would stick and everything froze. I tried switching the hydraulic grapple lines to see if it made a difference, but the valve just stuck in the "grapple closed" position instead of the "grapple open" position. I have a call in to the W.R. Long folks. If anyone else has any ideas as to what the problem may be, I'd welcome any suggestions.

 

[J_J]

I did not see a description of what was connected to what, so it is hard to know if everything is connected correctly. Did you use the PB port?

 

[gary1978]

Well after some phone time with the very helpful folks at the W.R. Long company I was convinced that I had plumbed the 3rd function valve incorrectly, and had plumbed it to the "P" for "Pump" end of the valve and not the "PB" or "Power Beyond" end of the pump. Since all the lines to the loader valve come from the rear of the tractor, I made the assumption that the "P" meant "Power-beyond" and I didn't notice the letters "PB" on the bottom of the loader valve because it was dirty and I didn't clean it well enough to read it when I first tried this. My great mistake! Anyhow, I re-hooked it all up to the correct "Power Beyond" port of the loader valve and it seems to work now. I still have leaky grapple lines to replace and hope to get to that chore tomorrow.
I did find that the Westendorf grapple lines make a sharp 180 degree bend inside the moving grapple jaw and I will try to find a way around that when I go to the hose shop tomorrow. I just don't think these hoses will last very long making that sharp 180 inside the grapple jaw. maybe I'll get this project finished this weekend.

 

[J_J]

That confirms what I was thinking, and wanted you to verify.

 

[stangkid14]

post some pics of the wr kit installed. Im ready to order it and wanna see how it looks installed

 

[gary1978]

I'll try to take some pics this week and get them posted. I got it all working and picked up my first large log tonight. I still want to install a new hydraulic line guard on the lower back edge of the grapple as the PVC tube that it came with was too small for the replacement hydraulic lines that I had to use after I blew the first ones. I'll really give it a workout in the coming weeks and will post my assessment of the total package. But it looks like I got all the (initial) bugs worked out.

It would have gone much smoother had I understood the installation instructions a little better. I'm just fortunate that I didn't do even more harm to my hydraulic system. But limiting the dead-head time to a few seconds and operating just off-idle on a worn-in pump, and rupturing the lightweight lines helped save the rest of the system.