3-Point Hitch 3PH moves by hand, not by lever, free floating CK30HST

tiger007 · Sep 21, 2013

Here's my long description of the events leading up to the problem and finally at the end the actual problem I have a question about. Hopefully I provided enough information to start a conversation.

I have a 2012 CK30HST with a remote valve kit dealer installed. Yesterday I had a 5' box blade on the back and a WR Long grapple on the front. The grapple is running off the rear remotes. I have a pair of hoses routed under the tractor to the front to connect to the WR Long Lid Cylinder. I use the Remote Lever from A to N to B to run the grapple open and close. Once I pick something up and its secure in the grapple I move the lever to the N position, but sometime it stays in A or B for a while if I am trying to pull brush or something and need to keep pressure on it.

I typically park the tractor with all the attachments lowered to the ground, grapple was on the ground, box blade on the ground. So I warm the tractor up, lift the box blade and grapple and drive about 500 yards to a small log landing I have. I continued up a rather steep log road to get the grapple close to a tree that was down. I had to get off the tractor to winch the tree into the log road so I could pick it with the grapple. Before I got off the tractor I lowered the box blade to the ground, lowered the grapple and set the parking brake. I got the tree moved into the road, got back on the tractor, lifted the box blade and then used the grapple to pick the tree up. As I was backing down the log road I noticed the box blade didn't appear to be up that high. It was not hitting the ground but it didn't look to be at the full up position, the lever was all the way back so it should have been at max lift. I wrote this off to the incline and my perspective looking down at it.

I got the log to the landing, dropped it and then headed back up the log road to get another log. On the way up one of the box blade teeth hit a stump and made the box blade bounce a bit on the back. It wasn't a "big" hit, I have hit rocks harder working the road but it got my attention. Partly because the box blade should have been high enough to clear anything on the road. The stump is about 3 inches above the dirt in the road.

Alright, we are getting to the problem, thanks for reading this far. I get back up the log road and do the same procedure, lower the box blade, lower the grapple, set the parking brake and get off the tractor to winch another log into the road. When I get back on the tractor is when things got interesting.

I went to raise the box blade and it didn't move. The lever was at 10, all the way to the back and nothing. The arms didn't move or even wiggle. I ran the lever back and forth a few times, nothing, no reaction at the 3PH arm at all. The FEL was working fine, I could lift the grapple, tilt, all that good stuff. The remote valve was working, I could open and close the grapple without any problems.

This was not a good place to be "stuck". Narrow log road cut into a mountain side paralleling a deep ravine on one side and a steep bank on the other side. I'll do another thread on how I got the box blade lifted but for now more about the problem.

I got off the tractor, put some chunks of wood under the rear tires and then pulled the pins on the box blade to the 3PH arms. I could grab the arms and lift them by hand up and down. This doesn't seem good at all, there should have been some type of resistance, or better yet I shouldn't have been able to move them by hand. I got back on the tractor and used the lever again, nothing no movement on the arms at all. I checked the 3PH speed control knob down by my feet. It was about in the middle of its range, but I ran it both directions and tested, nothing, nada, no movement at all on the arms.

The grapple still works, the FEL still works, just nothing at the 3PH. It was getting dark so I left the tractor there and headed home. At home I consulted the manual, nothing in there about overpressure switches or "neutral" for the 3PH. So I took to google. I didn't find anyone with the same problem. I did find an online version of the service manual. From that it looks like there is a safety valve in the MLS valve...maybe that popped and put the 3PH in neutral? I have no clue really.

I called the dealer this morning. He had no idea what the problem could be and indicated something might be broke inside. It looks like I'll be without a tractor for at least two weeks while they tear into it and try to find the problem. Whatever it is it should be covered under warranty, I hope. The tractor has 120hours on it and is just over a year old.

So, does anyone have a clue as to what could be wrong? I am suspecting a bad valve or broken linkage inside the housing. Or is there something simple I am missing?

In summary:
1. The 3ph was working although it may have been showing signs of loosing pressure due to the lack of lift height (initial observation) and then the hit on the stump.
2. The remote valve still works the grapple.
3. The FEL still works
4. The 3PH arms can be lifted by hand up and then they fall to the ground, very little resistance is felt when lifting them up, both arms lift when lifting only one side, so the shaft inside isn't broken.
5. The 3PH speed control knob didn't have any effect, full slow or full fast or in the middle.
6. The Hydraulic fluid is full
7. 120 hours on tractor

Thanks for any input.

-Tom

rider7767 · Sep 21, 2013

It sure sounds like the linkage is broken on the inside.

Sysop · Sep 21, 2013

tiger007 said:
In summary:
1. The 3ph was working although it may have been showing signs of loosing pressure due to the lack of lift height (initial observation) and then the hit on the stump.
2. The remote valve still works the grapple.
3. The FEL still works
4. The 3PH arms can be lifted by hand up and then they fall to the ground, very little resistance is felt when lifting them up, both arms lift when lifting only one side, so the shaft inside isn't broken.
5. The 3PH speed control knob didn't have any effect, full slow or full fast or in the middle.
6. The Hydraulic fluid is full
7. 120 hours on tractor

Thanks for any input.

-Tom

I had an identical issue out of my Mahindra, difference for me it was the first week of ownership... It was an existing issue from the factory. I hadn't noticed the issue before delivery because the arms operated fine, but I hadn't done any lifting with them before taking delivery due to the unit also having a backhoe installed. Once I took delivery, I'd taken the backhoe off and was moving things around and the operation of the lift with any load on it was unpredictable at best. When I would raise the position control, it wouldn't raise, mess with it a bit or even just walk away for a minute, it would. Once I was sure it wasn't operator error on my part (it ended up just as you describe in point 4) and it was put back in the dealer's hands, they fixed it over one weekend (took it last thing Friday afternoon and returned it first thing Monday morning, I thought that was nice for a dealer who doesn't maintain weekend hours). They opened the rear housing found a seal inside that was not correctly seated.

I hope yours turns out to be something so simple and just as quick!

tiger007 · Sep 22, 2013

The dealer is supposed to pick it up Monday evening and there are two other break downs in front of me. So I suspect it will be a week anyways. I'm right in the middle of hauling firewood so if something was going to break now was the time, just the way things go around here.

I'll post an update next week when I hear what's wrong.

Thanks for the replies.

-Tom

rider7767 · Sep 22, 2013

Tiger007. I hate that your tractor is down. I know I use mine when cutting wood and moving logs a lot. Darn the bad luck! :wrench:

tiger007 · Sep 26, 2013

Update:

The dealer was going to pick the tractor up Monday night on his way home from work and then get it to the shop Tuesday morning. There were 2 or 3 other break downs in front of me. Well, I got home from work on Monday night and the tractor was still in the yard. Ok, maybe he'll be by Tuesday morning. Get home Tuesday night still have a tractor in the yard. So today I gave him a call and asked when my tractor was going to be picked up. He said he still had some other jobs in front of mine so it could either sit in the rain at my place or his place.

I understand the process here, he's a small shop with limited space so this didn't surprise me much. So I asked if there would be any issues if I torn into it and whatever I found he would replace under the warranty. He gave me some good information on making sure I knew what the broken part was before trying to get a warranty replacement since Kioti wouldn't just replace parts willy nilly. I assured him whatever I found I would bring by the shop and let him look it over. He asked his mechanic what the most likely cause would be. In his history of selling Kioti's he has never had a 3PH break. They had one CK20 with a bad MLS valve. They pulled it out and cleaned it twice before calling Kioti for a replacement. So that seemed to be the best place to start.

I really wanted to be able to use the tractor this weekend so I told him I would get back to him once I dug into it.

I go home from work, moved some stuff around in front of the garage and then came inside to study the service manual. I'll post some pics next on the work I just finished.

rider7767 · Sep 26, 2013

I don't want to be a stick in the mud, and I would probably do the repair also; however, You would loose the legal battle if the poo hit the fan. See attached. Good luck with the repairs. I hope you get up and running soon.

LD1 · Sep 26, 2013

Keep us posted on what you find. It does sound like all things hydraulic are fine. But some linkage or something inside sounds broke.

A note thoguh: The 3PH will move up freely with little resistance. And will move back down with no resistance (at least up until the point that the lever is set at and from there on, hydraulics are holding)

tiger007 · Sep 26, 2013

rider7767, thanks for the warranty info. This is one of those areas where I hope my dealers is not out to screw me. Currently I feel he'll make sure things go smooth on the warranty side but you never know. He certainly has no clue as to my mechanical abilities, or lack there of. So he would be taking some risk in backing me if Kioti ever questioned the replacement of a part under warranty.

I had the ignintion switch go bad at the worst time last year. 30 hours on the tractor and the switch wouldn't turn. We just got a big snow storm and I had no way to start the tractor, plow or drag some fallen tress out of the driveway. Luckly my nearest neighbor came over and plowed with his tractor and helped clear trees. I pulled the key switch and took it inside thinking it might be frozen. Not the case. Aparently the switch locking up is a common issue. I took it to the dealer and showed him that it wouldn't turn. He just nodded, went to the back of the parts area and brought me out a replacement unit. It was an older design but he said they were more reliable and he had been having issues with the "new" design.

Long story short, that technically voided my warranty since I pulled and replaced the switch myself. But it let him work service jobs that were actually paying him versus my warranty work and I got the tractor running faster as well, so kind of a win-win.

-Tom

tiger007 · Sep 26, 2013

FIXED!! Re: 3PH moves by hand, not by lever, free floating CK30HST

The dealer said to start with the Control Valve first, so that's were I started.

First step was to remove the seat, seven (7) 12mm bolts. With the seat out there was plenty of room to access the MLS valve, aux valves and linkages.

The next step was to disconnect the speed control arm and then remove the two (2) 12mm bolts that hold the MLS valve. It took some gently prying to break the MLS valve free. In the photo you can see the first of three (3) green seals in the MLS valve. Be careful not to damage those. The manual recommends replacing them each time you pull the valve. Obviously that wasn't going to happen since I don't have any spares yet.

With the valve out I took it to the bench and examined it. The valve spool on the back of the valve moved freely, full travel. In one of the ports you could see the valve moving and the profile of it. The Piston valve seemed to be pretty stiff and didn't seem to be doing a full travel. The end of the piston sits flush with the End Plate so its kind of difficult to push with your finger. I used a short socket extension and was able to put some pressure on the piston and move it. It made a pop sound and then moved freely over its full travel. I believe this was the issue, the Piston was stuck. Now it was moving freely. So instead of tearing it down farther I decide to put it back in the tractor and test it.

Two bolts later, torqued to factory specs, the tractor was running and the 3PH arms were moving up and down. So it seems the MLS valve was indeed to culprit. I believe it was actually stuck in neutral.

I plan to run the tractor this weekend quite a bit so we'll see if it continues to work. I mounted the box blade on it last night and raised it up and down a bunch of times and then left it all the way up. Its still holding as of this morning. So hopefully that is the end of this one.

If anyone needs to repalce their MLS valve it is really simple. I didn't have to make any adjustments to it so this job took all of 40 minutes with the majority of the time taking the seat off and on.

I used the service manual I found on this site after doing a search. If you don't have the manual for your tractor I highly recommend getting one.