Buying Advice .

[Derrickl112]

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[Billy Bee]

I have been thinking about buying an old tractor for a little while now, specifically a ford 961 row crop wide front, but I don't know much about them. What price range do they typically sell for? Which is better, gas or diesel? I hear bad things about the SOS, which is why I am looking into the 961, and not the 971 or 981. Are the early 4000's any better than the 961's? Are there any pros and cons of the 961 vs 4000?

Can't help much as I have never owned either one. Don't know what you intend to do with it, for field work the diesel will use less fuel. The 4000 is newer I think and probably has more gears to choose from and could have power steering. Maybe someone who owns one or the other will chime in. I've read nothing but good things about the X000 series Fords. If it was me, I would go with the 4000 diesel and power steering. Hope some of the knowledgeable guys can help you.
Sorry, Bill

 

[sixdogs]

Get a hold of Soundguy. He may not be aware of the thread and I think he owns one of each. He is the go-to guy for these older Fords and knows a lot of the nuances that other people don't. He's the guy.

 

[NC419N]

If I were given the option the 4000 would be the choice. Newer, more parts available, better engineering and most of all Wet Brakes. Don't know of any pro's of a 961 over a 4000 except maybe price. But what do I know

 

[NC419N]

Yep your in a whole different ball park now. The "older" 4000 series machines are pretty much the same as the 961. That said you need to look up Soundguy he's the man on this site for those tractors

 

[SDT]

I am referring to the early 4000 (1962-1965 according to tractordata.com) that is nearly identical to the 961. 961 has a 5 speed, 4000 has a 4 speed. I believe they both have power steering. The tractor will not be used for any kind of farming. Maybe some mowing, but that's about it.

Thanks for the replies.

You are correct. The early 4 cylinder 4000 tractors (1963 - early 1965) are nearly identical to the similar 8/9*1 models that they replaced. Aside from S-O-S models, the only significant changes are sheet metal and paint.

I am not fond of the early four cylinder Ford diesel engine used prior to 1965. These engines are conversions of similar gasoline engines and did have serious durability issues early on (early 4 cylinder 172 CI engines would break crankshafts due to torsional vibrations resulting from the failure to incorporate a balance shaft). These problems were eventually worked out and I doubt that there are many (any?) four cylinder 172 CI diesel engines still operating out there that have not been retrofitted with balance shafts. Yes, the diesels will use less fuel than a 172 CI gasoline engine and have better torque characteristics but they also produce 6-8 fewer PTO HP.

Aside from the diesels, the 8/9 series Ford tractors and the 4 cylinder 4000 series tractors that replaced them were and remain popular tractors. Most parts are readily available and reasonably priced.

The 961 has a dual clutch (live PTO) five speed (vertical gate) transmission. The 4 cylinder 4000 was available with the four speed transmission (non live PTO), the dual clutch 5 speed (live PTO), or the improved S-O-S transmission with independent PTO. There were no 4 cylinder 4000 tractors built with non live PTO 5 speed transmissions, though this transmissions was available in the earlier 951.

All said, for mowing duty, why not look for the more common 861 or similar 4000 utility version rather than the 961/four cylinder 4000 row crop version?

SDT

 

[sixdogs]

Very informative post, SDT. I've often wondered about the difference between the 900 series and the 4000. Good info.

 

[strum456]

Do the pictures show the actual tractors you are looking at? The 4000 in the picture has a Sherman aux. transmission. This would give it 12 forward and 3 reverse speeds (assuming it is an over under, which it probably is). Depending what kind of mowing you are doing, this can be a nice feature due to the ability to over run the pto in high range. At maybe 1/3 throttle, the pto would be at 540.

The 960 has the advantage of the 2 stage clutch. This is a must for heavy brush hogging.

I prefer the 4 speed with a sherman for general use. BUT, for heavy brush hogging, running a hay bailer, sickle bar, snow blower, etc.. I'd have to go with the 960. Comparing the pre 62 4000 as shown in the picture with the newer 3 cylinder 4000 is like comparing the hundred series to the 8n.

 

[Texasmark]

I had an abused '63 4000 SOS gasser and did an inframe overhaul after I bought it, but I bought it for a song so that was ok.....still running. I have and have had for 15 or so years the '63 2000 4 cyl and the '65 3 cyl 3000, both diesels. The 2000 has the 4 speed transmission with transmission driven PTO. Actual hours on that machine is around 3750 and no engine work has been done. Compression is still such that I can easily start it on cold days without the glow plugs. Does not burn oil but has a few non critical fluid seals leaking slightly. The 3000 was my first diesel and I bought it with a worn out top end, not knowing that if you needed ether to start a diesel in Texas in April, you had serious compression problems. Price plus overhaul parts (I did an inframe) still came out to a reasonable price. It has 8 speeds and Live PTO. Neither of those tractors give me any problems and are about as good as you can get for a general purpose light duty utility tractor.

Over the years things like generator, water pump, brake linings, fan belt. No fuel issues or tranny/diff issues; engine things mentioned above. Put one seal in each of the 3 pt lift hydraulic cylinders over the years. Great tractors.

 

[jettex]

Texasmark is there anything else you might look for as far as problems with the 3000. I am thinking of buying one. I am not a mechanic .

 

[MitchellB]

I have a 1958 861 diesel and really like the 5 speed transmission. 2nd-4th seem about like 1st-4th on my old 8N, but 1st gear in the 861D slows things down to a crawl for more power or times you just need to go slow. I am not real fond of the the shifting pattern of the five speed with the up and down/forward and back motions trying to hunt for the right gear, but you get used to it. I prefer the 5 speed to the 4 speed for the added the low range of 1st gear now that I got one. I think the newer 3 cylinder diesels are supposed to be a better design, but when I was forced to rebuild my 4 cylinder Red Tiger right after I bought the tractor, (it was because the hydraulic pump gear shaft shattered or the gear on rear of the cam shaft came loose causing it to jam and shatter). Most of the internals parts were just barely out of spec, so for a 1958 engine, she wore down pretty gracefully.

 

[SDT]

Did you ever find a 961 or 4 cylinder 4000 row crop?

If not, I've decided to sell my 961-5 (factory wide front).

SDT