3-Point Hitch 3 point hitch won't lift

[JC-jetro]

I guess I'm confussed... Isn't the valve assembly what you've pictured with the springs and ball bearings? More importantly, isn't this what I'm supposed to take out to run the test for flow?

Or am I supposed to take out the plug on the opposite side to test the flow. I believe this plug is where a pressure tester is screwed in so I'm somwhat hesitant to have it open with maybe 2200 psi hyd fluid shooting at me.

Thanks,

Scott

We use terms valves, spool valves and check valves kind of loosely. What i recommended not messing with is the spool valve. Look at the pic below.

you see the banjo connection, that is the discharge from the top going to main pressure relief device and the spool valve itself. Don't mess with that yet. in the previous post I showed how the valve looks from the inside of lift housing. The spools are highly machined rods with porting and such that it is difficult to open up and put back together without damage.

No, you will not get 2200 psi shooting at you if it is full flow. pressure is cuase by resistance to flow, I still don't stand in front of it or Pull " Curley" with Moe and Larry watching. Conversely if you read 2200 psi does not mean you have flow. I can flow 0.1 gall/minute @ 5000 psi. Your tractor I think should have about 5-7 gpm so with the system open you'll get a heavy stream of low pressure fluid coming out. @ 7 gall/minute you put less than a gallon of fluid in a 5 gallon bucket.

JC,

 

[sevans]

Yup... valves, spools, checks can all be confusing.

Just so I'm very clear... this is the assembly I'm to remove giving me the 2 springs and ball bearings in your previous post?




My instructions (like baking a cake):

• Remove the above assembly
• Start the tractor with the lift lever fully down (shouldn't get any flow at this point)
• let it come up to operating temp
• raise the lever and collect the hyd fluid that comes out

Is there any need to measure/time the flow or are we just looking for flow?

 

[JC-jetro]

Yup... valves, spools, checks can all be confusing.

Just so I'm very clear... this is the assembly I'm to remove giving me the 2 springs and ball bearings in your previous post?

View attachment 108511


My instructions (like baking a cake):

• Remove the above assembly
• Start the tractor with the lift lever fully down (shouldn't get any flow at this point)
• let it come up to operating temp
• raise the lever and collect the hyd fluid that comes out

Is there any need to measure/time the flow or are we just looking for flow?

Yup, It's "shake and bake". What I do is to only remove the outer bolt, stiff spring and the little ball only. Rest can be kept in tact on the tractor.

Well, I'm fixing to head out of town to drive my son back to college, will not be here till tomorrow.

Jc, Over and out

Ps. forget about the operating temp, we're checking the flow, as soon as engine is running I check the flow, arm down=no flow, are going up =stating to flow. No flow one way and another and I then start scratching my head. Keep us posted.

 

[sevans]

Thanks a bunch... have a safe trip.

 

[sevans]

Well... I got no flow!

Fearing I was looking at a new hyd pump I called NH for a price. $834

I told them what I was doing and they sent me to a service guy who said...

• He's worked on about 50-60 1710's where the 3 pt wouldn't lift and 9 out of 10 times it's a dirty control assembly (something inside is stopped up).
  
• Said that if the FEL works then it's not the hyd pump (I'm not sure this is true)
  
• Said to take off the 7 bolts holding the assembly and the whole thing would come out as one piece.
  
• Said to soak it in solvent, blow it off with air, then soak it again.
  
• Said only 3 times did he actually "see" what caused the stoppage but again 9 out of 10 times just soaking the assembly fixed the problem.

I did what he said here's what it looks like.





I'm trying to find out what solvent to soak it in and should have it back together later this afternoon.

It was really easy to take apart and JC is right about how great the engineering is on these tractors.

 

[JC-jetro]

Well... I got no flow!

• He's worked on about 50-60 1710's where the 3 pt wouldn't lift and 9 out of 10 times it's a dirty control assembly (something inside is stopped up).
  
• Said that if the FEL works then it's not the hyd pump (I'm not sure this is true)
  
• Said to take off the 7 bolts holding the assembly and the whole thing would come out as one piece.
  
• Said to soak it in solvent, blow it off with air, then soak it again.
  
• Said only 3 times did he actually "see" what caused the stoppage but again 9 out of 10 times just soaking the assembly fixed the problem.

I'm trying to find out what solvent to soak it in and should have it back together later this afternoon.

It was really easy to take apart and JC is right about how great the engineering is on these tractors.

Hmm, What you have in the picture is 3 point lift spool valve. The thing I suggested not to dork up till as the absolute last option. Look at the pdf below that shows the innards of the spool valve. Taking it off is not what I'm concerned, it is putting together after cleaning without damage. I see evidence of moisture and rust on the spool but what's going on inside I don't know. What kind of solvent is he talking about as as I'm concerned with damage to orings if wrong solvent is used. If you just soak it in solvent it may just clean the outside but the blockage is in the inside of the spool area. As you manipulate the lift arm the two parts of the valve will separate ( the spring will be stretched) causing the spool to move in and out and that may be enough to spray wd-40 in there for a bit of soaking and then air to blow it out.

Now, does your FEL work? if it does , the tech is right about the flow and the pump , I don't think you have two stage hyd pump on 1710 and one pump does both 3 pt lift and implements like FEL.

If you really feel brave and adventurous, I'd take the tie rods and spring off, and remove nut #6 and #9 one at the time to remove spool#24 for inspection and cleaning if needed. I'll do the same for hyd valve #12. There is a bunch of nick knacks in there that you may not be able to buy individually and may be forcing you to buy the whole spool. I think that should run you maybe a little less than the hyd pump but still pretty pricey. I hope that guys would chime in with their opinion.

JC,

 

[sevans]

I didn't expect you back (or online) today. Wish I had waited...

What I posted before about his comments 'were' accurate as of yesterday. What he failed to tell me was I would have to take the thing apart; yesterday he said, take out the 7 bolts and soak it.

I called him today regarding what solvent to use because I had the same concern about the o-rings and he said gasoline or naptha. That's when he told me I'd have to take it apart.

I didn't get your response until just now so what I've done so far is to take off the linkage and remove the valve assembly from the mounting plate. I have not, nor intend to, jack with the 2 double nutted adjusting rods.

I couldn't get the 2 bolts (#6 and #9) off the front to get to all those very small and numerous parts so I'm soaking the whole thing. I doubt this will work in that on the top of the housing is a hole and that carmelized rust you see has made it down into that hole and the guts of the assembly.

If I have to take the thing apart it will have to wait until my neighbor gets home so I can use his vice (the one thing I sold and ended up needing - go figure.

Thanks for the help...

 

[sevans]

From a closer inspection of the pdf (thanks) each cylinder is independant and not an open forum for the rust to migrate to all cylinder and parts.

He said not to mess with the double nuts but to take off the plate (#10) and soak it. If I do as he says and not jack with the double nuts then I cannot remove the middle and lower cylinder parts. If I take off the plate then it looks like only 3 parts are in the top clyinder (#15, #8, #7). If there is no migration of rust to the other 2 clyinders then maybe a good soaking will do the trick without having to take those two apart.

Your thoughts?

 

[JC-jetro]

I didn't expect you back (or online) today. Wish I had waited...



I doubt this will work in that on the top of the housing is a hole and that carmelized rust you see has made it down into that hole and the guts of the assembly.

..

Little bit of WD-40 on the outside and a dremmel tool and brass brush can do a good job on rust removal. Are you sure that the rust is all the way through ?? If it is... (hard to believe) I'm sure the spool can not direct the flow properly. look at the pic below., that is the normal safety relief valve that returns fluid in to the sump thru the spool valve. It takes 3 bolt and you can take the assembly off from the outside. you'll find 3 holes and 3 orings as I recall. I'd just spray thru those hole in to the innards of the spool , let it soak and get compressed air in there to blow and hope for the best

JC,

 

[JC-jetro]

From a closer inspection of the pdf (thanks) each cylinder is independant and not an open forum for the rust to migrate to all cylinder and parts.

He said not to mess with the double nuts but to take off the plate (#10) and soak it. If I do as he says and not jack with the double nuts then I cannot remove the middle and lower cylinder parts. If I take off the plate then it looks like only 3 parts are in the top clyinder (#15, #8, #7). If there is no migration of rust to the other 2 clyinders then maybe a good soaking will do the trick without having to take those two apart.

Your thoughts?

in order to take #10 out , you'll need to take #6 and #9. Plate is #17 and manipulation of that is what moves the spool in and out. I responded before I read your post, again soaking can also be done like I explained by taking pressure relief valve as well.


Jc,

 

[sevans]

Yes, I'm now sure the rust is inside the top cylinder and parts.

Note on the pdf that the 2 #20's are o-rings in holes that expose the guts of the bottom 2 clyinders. What isn't shown in the pdf is the hole directly on top of the whole unit (#1).

Look at this pic and you'll find the hole that exposes the top clyinder guts (sorry, a bit out of focus).



The rust actually formed to block half that hole and I can see where it oozed onto parts #8 and #7 inside the top cylinder.

If this (top cylinder) can possibly cause my lift problem then I'm pretty confident it has.

Unfortunately, the rust is so bad that soaking alone isn't going to do the job. I'm going to have to take plate #10 off and clean the top clyinder parts.

The 2 #20 holes allow enough solvent (gas) to get inside so I'm not going to mess with taking those parts out.

Once I have the top clyinder parts cleaned and back in place I'm going to take your advice and spray WD in all the holes and shoot air inside as the final cleaning.

Thanks

 

[JC-jetro]

Yes, I'm now sure the rust is inside the top cylinder and parts.


Thanks

Yikes, the hole looks pretty bad. The casting of the valve assembly looks pretty thick. I hope it has not penetrated where #7 ( Hyd valve) is. Is your tractor parked outside all the time or was flooded at some time? Mine after 30 years does not have a slightest trace of rust inside. If the breather is plugged condensation during change of season can not go any where and trapped moisture can really damage. What surprises me is that the whole area of lift cylinder gets constantly sprayed with the lot of oil (I.e open center, live hydraulic)as long as the tractor is running. There should be ample oil film on everything protecting the metal from rusting. Well, I keep my fingers crossed, hopefully it won't be for naught and you won't have to get a brand new spool valve.


JC,

 

[sevans]

Yup... pretty bad!

I do believe it has gotten to #7 which I'll find out how bad as soon as I can get the 2 bolts and #10 plate off.

Yes, this tractor was (and really still is) a workhorse but my father died (original owner) in 1987 and this tractor sat out in the elements unused until last year (explaining why constant oil didn't protect the spool) when I needed it to build a Pavestone wall.

One of the country neighbors got it running last year because he wanted to borrow it to move some road base around. He put on (but Mom paid for the parts) a new battery, 3 FEL hyd hoses, fuel bowl and filter, hyd & oil filters, and new fluids. He had to drain off the fuel tank as well.

She fired right up! He used it for about a week then I went and picked it up and brought it to the city. The tractor has moved lots of dirt and Pavestones for me the past year but now I'm working on a picket fence for my home and needed the post hole digger.

In my use of it she blew another (old) hyd hose, leaked at the priority valve, and now this.

All in all... considering the abuse she got sitting in the elements for so long, I'm very pleased with her performance and I've found out there's nothing I can't repair on her (with your help).

Thanks

 

[JC-jetro]

Yup... pretty bad!

IYes, this tractor was (and really still is) a workhorse but my father died (original owner) in 1987

God bless, may your dad's soul RIP. I hope, I have not oversold myself, I'm pretty green (Kermit the frog comes to mind) when It comes to tractors. I had only one single tractor in my life in the last two years, but enjoy knowing the inner working of any piece of equipment including tractors. Keep us posted and we'll try to help or hinder. I myself specialize on the latter

JC,

 

[sevans]

Thanks,

I can tell by your photography (I used to be a pro photographer in the 70's) and your attention to detailing and documentation (I work with a lot of engineers) that if you've taken it apart then you have probably studied and understand it well.

Books are okay (just okay) for diagnosing a problem but they don't replace plain old been there, done that experience. For example, pg 95 says a faulty hyd pump could be the cause of my problem but we already determined that if it lifts the FEL then it's not the pump yet the book doesn't tell me that.

Lack of experience in any given industry means nothing to me; it's the people involved. I'm revolutionizing water analysis with a team of people who none of have experience in the water industry. We've been asked why smarter people (people from the industry and university) didn't think of our solution?! You just can't answer that without offending the folks from the industry and university.

The gas bath didn't do much to the rust. I did use WD40 and a wire brush and removed it but i'm pretty sure that once I have the top clyinder parts out that I'll need to get out the Dremmel and clean up the inside. Depending on the extent of the damage and cost of parts, I may just buy new parts rather than trying to clean rust off a tiny spring (which might be rusted in half anyway). First I'll try some spray on rust remover.

 

[JC-jetro]

Thanks,


The gas bath didn't do much to the rust. I did use WD40 and a wire brush and removed it but i'm pretty sure that once I have the top clyinder parts out that I'll need to get out the Dremmel and clean up the inside. Depending on the extent of the damage and cost of parts, I may just buy new parts rather than trying to clean rust off a tiny spring (which might be rusted in half anyway). First I'll try some spray on rust remover.

Seavan,

Totally agree with your statement. I know many service people ,mechanic maintenance folks that are as sharp as it gets, they just did not get the opportunity for engineering school. They would have made fine engineers knowing the fundamentals a bit better coupled with great intuition and vision and specially hand eye coordination

I recommended to use dremmel tool and brush only on the outside. When you remove the spool and you see rust, I recommend to get some highest grit emery cloth and very lightly by hand/finger clean the inside. With dremmel set I have cotton disk that can also be used to buff things off, that may be choice for the inside. Tolerances are tight and parts are highly polished. You don't want to leave scratch mark after you're done cleaning.

Good luck
JC,

 

[sevans]

Well... I finally got the one bolt off from the rusted chamber. The nut, o-ring and spring all look good. Unfortunely, the "unloading valve" is rusted to the cylinder wall. I'm soaking it in WD-40 right now but fear it will take something stronger to eat away the rust.

Any ideas???

If I can't get it out today I'll probably put it all back together and hope that the problem isn't caused by this piece. It doesn't take much to dissassemble the control valve and take another stab at it if what I've done hasn't fixed the problem.

BTW... NH said they don't make that control valve and the "unloading valve" is special order and $72. I understand that NH came out with a new spool valve so maybe my part number for the whole unit has been changed to reflect the new spool valve.

 

[johnnylight]

check out :http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/88634-take-all-off.html

PineRidge way.

 

[JC-jetro]

check out :http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/88634-take-all-off.html

PineRidge way.

Cool post

What a coincidence, I have done the same thing (electrolysis) using a bucket of water, some table salt and sacrificial zinc anode to ionize water using DC current. Same principal, I did not try to remove rust though, it was part of mad scientist experiment to detoxify body thru one's feet.

JC,

 

[sevans]

That is REALLY cool!

Think it will work with an "assembly" with lots of tiny parts in it?

Sounds like an execellant alternative once I put it back together and what I'm doing doesn't work.

I have freed up the unloading valve to where it moves about an 1/8" inside the barrel but still working on getting it out.