2210D Front End

vongiese · Apr 16, 2002

I've got my front end apart to replace oil seals. I've got the gear housing with axel off the tractor and I'm wondering a couple things - should there be ANY play in the drive axle end? I can move the axle in and out a little - 1/4" or so...
The other thing is the 80w-90 front end oil looked like chocolate milk. And the dealer I bought it from said he changed all the fluids, I find it hard to believe that this oil was changed - the tractor's been stored out of the weather.
Other than a little gunk in the bottom, the bearnings and bevel gears looked good. I replaced the inner oil seal but gonna wait on the large upper seal (it wasn't leaking). I'm about ready to put it back together. Can i get by without a gasket - just gasket cement? - recommend any particular type gasket cement?
thanks $$$

roger_scotty · Apr 17, 2002

The "chocolate milk" look is absolutely diagnostic. It means that there is quite a bit of water in the oil. So if it was changed by the dealer then it has had water added since then. Another front end trick is to stuff a seriously leaky front axle assembly with body grease. It will lube sufficiently for light weight 4wd work and sure doesn't leak fast...

Note: when adding 80/90 wt remove a bolt from the top of each reduction housing to allow the air to escape or it will take forever to fill.

If there is no obvious water damage to the gears and bearings then count yourself lucky and no harm done.

What do you mean by the "drive axle end"? This terminology thing is a real bear! Starting at the pumpkin (in both directions), I call the long shaft going out the axle housing as a drive axle with a pinion on the outboard end, then there are the gears which rotate on the vertical spindle in the reduction housing. Those spindle gears drive a large ring gear solidly affixed to the axle for the front wheel.

The construction of the front axle drive is one area where US Yanmars really differ from the Yanmars built for JD - which were much simpler.. I do not know which scheme that the grey market models use, but expect they are like the US Yanmars rather than the JDs. I hope so anyway. The true Yanmars use many more parts than the JDs and are designed to be shimmed to close tolerances that are typical of the way that engineers like to see pinion, bevel, and ring gear pairs working. I'm not sure which gear pair you are meaning. Bevel gears must have some end play when they engage. .005" to .008" is about right. Just enough so that you can definitely feel the end play. The endplay is typically set with shims, though you may have to disassemble farther to find them.

I use and recommend a silicone sealer like the Dow or Permatex automotive brands. Apply to one clean surface in a THIN even layer and let it SET UP for an hour or more before assembly. Sometimes I let it set up overnight. I rarely if ever assemble with wet or tacky silicone. I often re-use old gaskets since the silicone does the oil sealing. The job of the old gasket is act like a shim and preserve existing bearing clearances. The only place I always use new gaskets is the exhaust manifold and cylinder head

vongiese · Apr 17, 2002

Thanks for your take on the oil Roger. I hate it when a dealer claims to go thru a tractor and then you find something like this. And this isn't the first thing. But I think it's a good tractor over all.
Bearings and gears are ok - I cleaned up one sticky bearing with some diesel and works fine now. There's a tiny bit of rust on one side of the long shaft that'll clean up easily.
Yeah terminology - funny how I understand exactly what you're talking about....
Let's see - the area where i have a little play (maybe more like 1/8") is on the pinion side of the long shaft. I can move the long shaft in and out about 1/8".
One of the toughtest parts of this job has been cleaning the old gasket and cement off the two halves!! That stuff is tough!
Next time I may try that spray-on gasket remover I saw at NAPA.
Thanks for the help Roger!

roger_scotty · Apr 17, 2002

Mike, If I have the picture right, you are holding the reduction gearbox and there is a long shaft - the axle shaft- sticking out of one hole. That shaft has flutes on one end where it engages the diff, and the other end terminates in a bevel pinion that cannot be seen with the top of the reduction gear housing on.....and that shaft has an in and out play of about 1/8 inch and you think it should be less. I agree.

When you look at that shaft from the outside of the housing you should be able to see a snap ring and a large bearing. There are shims between the snap ring and bearing outer race. Where is the motion? Between the outer race and the housing? Or is the shaft sliding inside the inner race? Or is the motion in the bearing itself, being a relative movement between the inner race and the outer race of the bearing?

BTW, that gasket you are talking about is also a shim. You are going to need a new one. I think that most of the US Yanmar shop manuals will show that front end in detail. You might ask one of the dealers about that. Great manuals.

vongiese · Apr 17, 2002

Roger - I'll look close at the "play" to see exactly where it's coming from. You've once again described it very well.
Sorry to hear i have to have a gasket! I just glued the dang thing together last night without one! I have a 240D operators manual the 2210D parts and the I&T manuals. How do you know if a gasket is a shim or just a gasket?
Thanks again!

roger_scotty · Apr 17, 2002

I figure that if the thickness of the gasket can change the engagement of gears or the endplay of shafts then that gasket is a shim. If you are talking about the gasket that I think that you are, then it affects the engagement of the final drive ring gear with the pinion that rotates on the vertical steering spindle. The 2210 parts book sounds like a good one. Maybe you can find a YM226,276,336 workshop manual on ebay. I've bought them there.

EFC · Apr 17, 2002

Shims are usually metal and are of a specific thickness that doesn’t change. Gaskets change in thickness as they are compressed and if they are being used as shims it is a very poor design because the thickness would change constantly.

roger_scotty · Apr 17, 2002

Naw, no way.... I completely disagree. Everything compresses when it is forced....even metal shims. It doesn't matter how little or how much, only that it is repeatable. I'll agree with you that "shim" was a poor choice of words for what I was explaining. What I am saying is that when the tolerance stackup is calculated by the designer he includes the compressed thickness of the gasket in that stack. If you don't use a gasket in that sort of application then the various other shims might need to be adjusted. Its easier to just use the gasket.
EFC,I happen to know that you are an experienced mechanic, so I'm not telling you a thing that you don't already know. But its worth both of us kicking the subject around for new mechanics who might be lurking....if any. Sure, I agree that paper gaskets are a questionable design feature, but they are common in mechanical devices. Lots of precision machinery has bearing plates mounted in that same way. It is typical to assemble and disassemble them several time while the various gear engagements and bearing endplays are adjusted with metal shims. But if you don't include that paper gasket each time you trial-assemble then all the shimming is for naught.
If a guy is just going to slap it back together using the factory shims, then the paper gasket should be included.

EFC · Apr 18, 2002

i give up

vongiese · Apr 18, 2002

Roger - the "play" seems to have disappeared once I reassembled everything (in the outer drive housings). It's less than 1/16" now and the play seems to be the long shaft moving, not the bearing. Hmmm....
thanks

roger_scotty · Apr 18, 2002

EFC, pardon me while I get off this high horse; I think the altitude is giving me a nosebleed...

.

EFC · Apr 18, 2002

Did not mean to offend I knew you would disagree but that is not why I posted the reply. I was just posting for peoples general knowledge. I took the answer from my mechanics handbook so what do you want me to say.

roger_scotty · Apr 19, 2002

No offense taken. Hopefully we did accomplish something educational and showed that there is more than one way to consider these mechanical things.

The good news is that in the midst of our tangle, Mike got his reduction housing back together and is now pleased with the endplay.
Mike, changing to a different gear set now, how does the rotation feel when you rotate the output flange where the wheel mounts? It should rotate smoothly without binding and theoretically have just a tiny bit of slop rotationally which is play in the gear engagement. Some older ones that have been used hard in 4wd (like mine) have quite a bit of slop there. THe important thing is that it rotates smoothly without binding.

vongiese · Apr 19, 2002

Roger - rotation feels good - seems to turm relatively smoothly - can feel the gears but it does not bind. I did not notice any rotational play, but maybe that is a result of not using a gasket? I'll take a good look at it again before I put it together and I may order some gaskets.
Thanks again for your invaluable advice.

EFC · Apr 19, 2002

GOOD, I agree!

roger_scotty · Apr 20, 2002

Obviously the big danger here is that the ring and pinion will "bottom out".

We know that the original gasket is relatively thick, so it is going to have some shim effect. However - as EFC says - it does compress an unknown amount so we can't really call it a shim even though we know it does do something to the gear engagement. We also know that Yanmar originally set that engagement up to have very little play.

I'm thinking that if it rotates smoothly then you might have gotten lucky and that the total wear in the system is enough to give working clearance. Of course if that is true and you do put a new gasket in, then you will have a large amount of slop there. Better too much than too little. This question of how normal wear is affecting the system is the very one that every mechanic asks himself with every part all day long in every rebuild job.

Actually, we are lucky with the Yanmar front end. There are lots of places where the various clearances from wear and assembly were designed to be measured and adjusted with hard metal shims. Designing something with that degree of adjustability adds considerably to the cost of the product. It is the sort of thing that was common manufacturing practive years ago, but is rarely seen in products today. The fact that Yanmar made tractors with a design philosophy shaped around durability and repairability has a lot to do with their continued popularity.

vongiese · Apr 20, 2002

I checked the rotational play, and I can deduct just a tiny bit (engineering term) of play. Of course i can't tell where it's coming from, but has to be on at least one of the gear pairs.
Do the american Yanmar service manuals talk about tolerances and shim placement?