2005 John Deere 4410 electrical issue, no start.(Solved)

[Cw021382]

Hi everyone, I just picked this neat little tractor up. It’s a 4410 gear trans with electric shuttle. Also has the factory mid scv diverter to run top and tilt with the loader joystick, and a dedicated third function lever. Here’s a couple pics.

I have it somewhat disassembled as I washed it, and am now working on this issue. The issue started when the rear pto was engaged to see it worked, and then disengaged. When disengaged it killed the tractor, and it would not restart. I bought it and brought it home. It killed the tractor because the fuel solenoid is not getting power now. I removed the solenoid and the tractor starts and runs fine. I bench tested the solenoid and it pulls in and holds as it should. I tested all fuses, and they are all good. I also tested the seat switch, clutch switch, and neutral switch, and all work. I switched diode blocks and no difference. I then tested all relays. Here is the schematic.


Only K1 was bad, but it is just the manifold heater and should not matter (I think). I then removed the fuse box and tested for continuity with the solenoid plug. Red goes to 87 on K4, white goes to 30 on K3, and black goes to ground as shown on the schematic. All had continuity with the plug so no broken wires. on K4 30 is indeed hot always, 86 is hot when key is on, and 85 is a good ground. I can feel K3 click when the key is turned on. The only way I can get the solenoid to pull in is jump from 30 to 87 on K4. I don’t understand why The K4 relay doesn’t work? If I’m reading the schematic right 87 on K6 feeds power to 86 on K4 when the key is turned on, and I do get power to 86 on K4 when key is on.

On K4 how can I be getting power to 86 and ground to 85 (with a good solenoid) and not get power to the fuel solenoid? What am I missing? I hope an electrical guru can help. I’m not a mechanic exactly, but I’m usually pretty good with this stuff. I figure my problem is a bad K6 solenoid timer. Can I test it, and if so how? Thanks. -Chris

 

[Cw021382]

Working on it this morning I discovered that with K4 removed and key on I have constant power to 86. However, with the K4 relay inserted I only get power to 86 for a millisecond when turning the key on. I swapped in some different relays just in case and no difference. It’s not a relay problem. Also, 30 on K3 is grounded with the key off. Shouldn’t the key have to be on for 30 to be grounded?

 

[Cw021382]

I don’t have a manual for this tractor yet. Does anyone have one and can you post a pic of the schematic for the eprt transmission please. X5 switched power for 86 on K4 comes from W3 ePRT Which is also where 87 on K6 goes. There has to be an issue there somewhere or I have a ground breaking down. I’m still checking grounds, but I haven’t found a bad or corroded one yet. Thanks.

 

[zzvyb6]

There should be a rear PTO safety switch in a wiring diagram. I don't see it. On another page ? I also see parking brak safety switch and clutch safety switch. INOP ?

 

[Cw021382]

Parking brake and clutch switch work. The pto switch works and the Light on the dash works. If you pull the pto switch it will not crank so I assume the safety is working. Here is the schematic for the pto and safety switches.

 

[Cw021382]

I checked the voltage on K4 with my meter instead of a test light, and I’m not totally loosing voltage. With the relay out I have 12.5V on 30, 10V on 86. With the relay in I only have 1V on 86. The battery is only 8 months old so not the problem. I think I read somewhere that the hold in voltage is 3V and the pull in voltage is 6V. The pto switch works as I said, but it has to have a way to kill power to the hold in wire of the solenoid if the tractor is running. I wonder if this part of the switch is bad? It makes sense as the pto switch is where the issue began. It also has to be able to kill power to the starter so it won’t crank if pto is engaged, but that part is working.

 

[Cw021382]

Back at it this morning. Big thanks to Joecdeere for his help. I am going to attach all test procedures in hopes it will help someone in the future. I have now tested the diode blocks and they are good.


I retested my solenoid using the manual procedure. All 3 terminals have continuity with each other and are not shorted to the case. A to B is good at 4-5 ohms. A to C and B to C are both at about 24 ohms. Twice the listed spec. The solenoid functions properly with 12V, but may not with the lower supplied voltage thru the tractors electrical system and the higher than spec resistance?


I tested both PTO switches. The rear passed the OFF position tests, but failed both ON position tests. Not sure this would affect anything since all off position contacts are good, but it might? When the tractor is running the switch works (verified visually) turning on and off the pto and dash light. The mid PTO switch was under the right control panel even though the tractor does not have mid PTO. It passed all tests.

 

[Cw021382]

Here is the fuel circuit theory of operation for anyone who might be following along or might need it in the future.

 

[Cw021382]

Ok, I now understand how the fuel circuit works, and have verified my issue is in fact the fuel solenoid timer control module. I enjoyed the challenge of proving it thru testing though and hope this helps someone someday. My rear PTO switch is also faulty, but the fault does not affect the fuel solenoid circuit. Refer to the following schematics while reading below. I hope the way I explain it is easier to understand than the manual.

Power to open the fuel solenoid can come from either of 2 different paths on the 4410 with ePRT transmission. One thru the seat switch and diode block 1, and the second thru the rear PTO switch then the neutral safety switch then to diode block 1. Either way you should have battery voltage at 30 on K6 (the timer module) with key on.

On the back side of the fuse block holder put your red lead on 85 K6 and ground your black lead. Turn key on and you should have battery voltage for 3 seconds then nothing.

86 on K6 should be ground.

With key on 86 on K4 should have battery voltage from 87 on K6. This is where my problem is. My voltage is only 5.5 and fluctuates. The current path from 87 K6 to 86 K4 takes you for a ride, and you need to check connector x5 which is here on the left side below the shuttle.

You can skip checking the wires and just test 87 on K6 direct, if everything else is good and voltage is low here your solenoid timer module is bad. If it is the same as battery voltage you then need to check the wires.

305 Dk Grn leaves 87 on K6 and goes to connector x5 where it connects to 521 brn (This 521 brn is not the same as the one connected to 30 on K6). 521 brn goes into the electronic operating system controller located behind the steering pump. It does some magic with the shuttle shift and comes back to connector x5 as 303 Org. If everything is good it will still have battery voltage. On the other side of connector x5 it becomes 303 Lt Blu which finally goes to 86 on K4 where it energizes the fuel solenoid.

I will post when I get the new timer and pto switch installed. Thanks for the help and letting me use the forum as a sounding board for my thoughts. -Chris

 

[Cw021382]

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. I received the new fuel solenoid timer control module yesterday. I found time to install it today, and it did resolve the issue. Also, a new pto switch and it now functions as it should.

 

[npazin]

I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving. I received the new fuel solenoid timer control module yesterday. I found time to install it today, and it did resolve the issue. Also, a new pto switch and it now functions as it should.

Hey,
I am experiencing the same issues with my 4210 that it seems like you solved with you 4410.
Great write up and thanks for following through! I hate when a thread goes silent with no resolution.
Anyhow, I also think I am at a point of the Fuel Solenoid Timer Module. I have spent the last couple days testing the solenoid, K2, K3, K4, the Diode and the what I could of the timer. I get the initial "pull-in" when I turn the key but it cuts out after the 3 or so seconds. Therefore, it runs until the solenoid cuts out. Checked the continuity on all the wires, followed voltage through the relays, and the ohms on the solenoid harness. I can rule out the Neutral and the Seat switch by using a jumper wire.
Last bit I could try before throwing down money on the Module is the PTO switch... However, I'M guessing if that was bad then I wouldn't get the "pull-in" voltage.

Again. Thanks for the write up... after reading a couple dozen others this was the most helpful and complete!

 

[npazin]

Just received the Fuel Solenoid Timer Module today.... 100% fixed the no voltage to the "hold-in" wire problem I was having. Tractor runs great now!

One thing to note as the Module was failing, it wasn't like a light switch. My first fix was a new fuel filter, and it actually worked! For about 2 minutes. Then it would run for a minute or two and cut out. So then I replaced the lift pump without doing much investigation. This had zero effect and in fact got worse. If I let is sit for a period it would run for up to 30 seconds, then when I immediately restarted the tractor it would cut off within 5 seconds. Later I discovered this was because of these tractors being self-priming.
This is when I started reading forums and virtually went through everything the gentlemen who wrote this thread went through.
This is a great thread for this problem... it would have saved me a few days of piecing together several other threads I used should I have found it sooner!

 

[Rbufe]

Good evening,

Your thread has been so informative! Granted I like to try to make repairs myself but I don’t have near the experience you do by reading your thread.
I have a 4410 and while I was shredding (PTO engage) the tractor suddenly sputtered and died. I disengaged the PTO turn the key to the off position then tried to start the tractor back up. It won’t even try to crank. I check voltage on the battery and I have good voltage. Lights work seems like I have good power. I went ahead and tested voltage at the starter and voltage is good there. But the tractor won’t even try to turn over. I begin troubleshooting the PTO switch since the PTO was engaged when tractor died. I read in your thread about the PTO switch. I went through the continuity test and the switch tested good with the switch off but when I tested it with the switch on. I was getting no continuity between terminal A and B and D and E. I’m keeping my fingers crossed this is my issue and have ordered a new PTO switch.