1999 engines

[HankC]

Just out of curiosity, what is the real difference between a certified engine and one that is not certified? Are they re-engineered to lower the emmisions or is it just a documentation issue?

HankC /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

 

[Harrygoodwrench]

Yes. its emissions related. Wait until 2007. The standards get even tighter. I read in some trade magazines that these new standars for 07 will add about 6 to 7K to price of an engine in a big truck to be compliant. They are going after all engines. Don't blame me. Thats what I've been reading. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[JohnS]

Preliminary reports indicate there are probably minor changes. They won't know for sure until the tractors land here. And yes, other inquiring minds would like to know, as well. /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[Bugsy]

Hello John:
As per EPA - in 2005, any and all engines and equipment found to be trying to circumvent the regs by using '98 and '99 labels, will be facing the possibility of destruction or export AT the owners expense. This is supposed to start applying to units hitting the docks in March.

The way the regs are written, the person/company doing the importing is considered the "manufacturer". Therefore an even greater risk is that if the "manufacturer" is found to have "stockpiled" non-compliant engines, they will be found in violation and FINED and we are not talking about parking tickets - the EPA loves to get their point across with fines.

In English, that means if someone imports a '98-'99 engine in 2005, they face the risk of:

1. Losing their money
2. Losing their product
3. Being fined heavily by EPA

....and it (the responsibility) does not fall on the Chinese or the "broker". --OUCH! That would be a tough lesson for someone trying to save a buck.

As for emissions certification and labels, there are many variables that the EPA uses to compute cost.

Briefly, but not limited to:
1. Type of use for the engine.
2. Power class of engine.
3. Fuel type
4. The number of engines expected to be sold in the US.

Prices and costs range from $2000 to ???? (let your imagination "fly")

From what we have been told, the certificate in the case of Jinma IS owned by Jinma (or at least an affiliate). The cost and the process has always been a fear factor. Now that they have found that it is not so bad of a process and cost, the intent is to certify all engines - as they are required.

Because this affects more than tractors, their government has pledged to foot part, if not all of the bill,, for the process.

Also I am not sure of additional fees for a "certified engine". but our distributor is not charging us for anything but a 4 cylinder upgrade. The units themselves have just increased accross the board.

The US market is far too large for any overseas manufacturers to ignore. Now everybody has to play ball.

 

[JohnS]

I didn't think the Jinma factory could hold the certificate, but that is great news. That makes it much easier for everyone.

 

[bluechip]

Ultimately it seems, the engine manufacturer would be the likely holder, considering warranty issues, etc. It appears to be the case with the TY395, which to the best of my knowledge is also to be the first available EPA compliant engine to be arriving to the USA. I know it is being offered on JInma and KAMA products currently. This should be really good news for the Chinese tractor industry, (at least for legitimate importers) and just in time for the expiring TPEM program!

On the other hand, if a US based company somehow gains control of the EPA engines, we could see the end of the independent importer/dealer with the end results being higher prices, as seen on other "exclusive market" Chinese brands.

Guess the bottom line is "get em while they're still so cheap!"

Of course with higher prices, there will be more of an competitive drive to further improve quality, ultimately the Chinese will likely follow the S Koreans, meeting world class quality levels, but with prices that approach the big 3. In fact their (Korean) advantage now is more in offering more tractor for the same dollar than the "leading brands" rather than a significantly lower price. Guess I'm getting off topic here. Sorry.

 

[Bugsy]

Hello Chip;
EPA regs can be very confusing. The agency itself can be very tough on violators. In their defense, the EPA serves a very good purpose by subscribing to a mission statement the includes protecting the US environment for the p[eople of the US.

Now with that said; Anybody can hold a certificate of compliance, regardless of their location. Certificates are very much unlike patents. The fact that these engines have a certificate makes all future engines of the same size "acceptable" by the EPA.

What I am saying is; Once an engine gets certified, it is certified. No one person/company can hold a monopoly using an EPA Certificate of Complaince. The EPA has provisions for us wittle guys, should anyone ever attempt that.

As for the "get 'em while they're cheap", the big concern their is the Chinese Yuan (dollar). As of this moment, the Chinese keep their dollar in their control, neck and neck with the US dollar. This has been done specifically fo us in the US, with other motives. Keeping our final costs under control keeps us importing Chinese products.

Here is the kicker. The Chinese economy is overheating. They cannot get quality goods out fast enough. There is a shortage of qualified help (sound familiar). So how does a government remedy this. Simple. Trade the money on the open market and as is the case with the Chinese (Yuan), if it is undervalued, sudden wealth and slow down.

In other words just like European products, the Chinese tractors will become more expensive, an estimated 25 - 40 percent.

They will make more money on less. This is real and this is estimated to happen in the next few months, by financial experts.

To avoid going further off-topic (I know - too late /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ) Email or PM me and I will show you what is actually happening.

The final effect will be everything will go up in price. Deere, Holland, Kubota, Massey, etc. They are counting on it. It will increase their profit margins once again.

If anybody is truly interested in a Chinese tractor, and price is the biggest consideration, NOW is the time to contact a dealer and order. EPA certificates are not going to be the cause of price increases.

 

[JohnS]

JMHO, the EPA's real mission statement "No enduser will have the ability or be able to afford to fix or adjust their own engines" /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif submission statement: "Thou shall not have an engine with a carberator". Sorry, couldn't help it! /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

 

[JohnS]

With that kind of price increase, the china tractor will not be a viable option. While the top tier tractor prices may go up, not near that type of increase. Their prices are not driven by the price of chinese tractors today. A small price difference between the chinese and Korean/Indian/Japanese tractors, and everyone will choose the latter. The design and quality of the chinese tractors will not match them, and will take them considerable time to acheive. An increase of only 10-15% will keep them in the game.

JMHO, and of course, this is just speculation.

 

[Bugsy]

Speculation - such a wonderful word for "guessing" (on everybody's part, including mine) /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Anyway, increases, if this actually happens on would be in dollar amounts. If Chinese tractors increase (for the sake of round numbers) 25% or $2500, then the big boys will increase not the same percentage BUT an addition $2400, keeping the "spread" about the same.

You see, they will claim that costs have gone way up but they are still the good guys because their increases were not as high.

What is my basis for all of this?
My background is Certified Master Technician (gas and diesel) and I have been watching this happen for the last 30 years with the automakers. (The very same people that introduced this philosophy to manufacturing) I also, for some sick reason, enjoy reading financial magazines over Sports Illustrated - go figure!

Believe it or not, these manufacturers DO NOT want the Chinese out of business. The big boys hope that people will eventually graduate to ac cabs and power windows, or any other latest and greatest which only they offer. They do not want to offer lower priced units because the margins just are not there for them. But I doubt any would admit to that.