1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system

[rScotty]

JD 4010 diesel electrical system is both positive & negative ground with starter/generator/voltage regulater isolated from tractor frame with NO ground + or -. Starter solenoid is engaged by completing 24 volt circuit but not by means of a ground.

Is that so? BOTH positive and negative grounds?? How can that be? Well thanks Jim, I never mind being corrected if so. I will say that's such an odd way to do tractor wiring that I'm going to check it just for my own education...but it won't make any difference to the solenoid diagnosis & repair even if his tractor is using multiple "floating grounds". The solenoid can still be tested with either a single battery or two, and polarity doesn't affect how a solenoid works.

Nothing else would change except that instead of using the frame and motor block as the ground side of the circuit, the tractor would be using one or more isolated or" floating" grounds. Physically a floating gound is nothing more than a rather large battery cable insulated from the frame, and all the comments about making good connections still apply.

I obviously need to go look at some JD 4010 electrical schematics to see what else they did in a wierd way on that tractor.
Raising the DC battery voltage above 18 volts is frowned upon today because the electrical codes consider that to be roughly the voltage at which a person's protective skin resistance breaks down. So in order to design with higher battery voltages requires some safety measures....and that was true even back in the 4010's day.

rScotty

 

[jrsavoie]

Is that so? BOTH positive and negative grounds?? How can that be? Well thanks Jim, I never mind being corrected if so. I will say that's such an odd way to do tractor wiring that I'm going to check it just for my own education...but it won't make any difference to the solenoid diagnosis & repair even if his tractor is using multiple "floating grounds". The solenoid can still be tested with either a single battery or two, and polarity doesn't affect how a solenoid works.

Nothing else would change except that instead of using the frame and motor block as the ground side of the circuit, the tractor would be using one or more isolated or" floating" grounds. Physically a floating gound is nothing more than a rather large battery cable insulated from the frame, and all the comments about making good connections still apply.

I obviously need to go look at some JD 4010 electrical schematics to see what else they did in a wierd way on that tractor.
Raising the DC battery voltage above 18 volts is frowned upon today because the electrical codes consider that to be roughly the voltage at which a person's protective skin resistance breaks down. So in order to design with higher battery voltages requires some safety measures....and that was true even back in the 4010's day.

rScotty

There wasn't much safety on this one. Not a fuse or a circuit breaker until you hit the light switch

 

[jd110]

Is the relay you used rated for 24 volts? I am sure it needs to be. Deere had 12 volt kits and 24 volt kits. The solenoid was rated accordingly. I have installed many 12 volts relays, but never had the need to install one on a 24 volt system. Usually find the need on 12 volt systems as they get older due to a build up of resistance in wiring, connections and switches. It is cheaper to install a relay than replacing harnesses and switches. The 24 volt systems were less sensitive to the voltage drops you get with older components. Still not a bad idea, but I haven't installed any so I can't help with how the relay was wired in the JD kit. The 24 volt kit was RE42639 and it included the AT71088 relay which is a 24 volt relay.

 

[Tx Jim]

rScotty
JD 24 volt accessories wiring was indeed both + & - ground with 1/2 the lights/accessories on 2 different circuits labeled Batt A & Batt B. If electrical loads weren't kept equal the generator would fail to keep both batteries properly charged. I served as a JD dealer service manager from '74-'87 & have many hrs of hands on experience diagnosing/repairing the JD 24 volt system. If the 4010 in question was mine it would be changed to a 12 volt system in a very short amount of time.

 

[Tx Jim]

jd110
Yes relay JD offered for 24 volt system was a 24 volt relay AT71088 Relay -STARTER SOLENOID (24V) ADD 87.92 USD

I also never installed or seen a 24 volt system with relay installed but was aware of it's availability

 

[Tx Jim]

There wasn't much safety on this one. Not a fuse or a circuit breaker until you hit the light switch

Circuit breaker kit was a field installed option to help limit damage to 24 volt wiring harnesses due to fires caused by direct shorts. Most circuit breakers were added at the same time when new wiring harnesses were installed due to the fires.

 

[jrsavoie]

Circuit breaker kit was a field installed option to help limit damage to 24 volt wiring harnesses due to fires caused by direct shorts. Most circuit breakers were added at the same time when new wiring harnesses were installed due to the fires.

The only thing that kept me from going 12 volt right now was cost. Limited funds here. Since the starter was said t have been recently rebuilt, just going with the 24 volt alternator seemed a cheaper route

Had I known the kit was so lame that I had to figure out and build my own mounts and had to have a pulley machined to make the alternator work properly, I would have gone 12 volt.

Both were issues that the seller of the kit knew about.

It is a piss poor kit.

Since I installed a 70 amp alternator, I assumed the wiring would not be enough to handle the extra juice.

I ran a blue and brown 6 ga. wire directly from the alternator to the appropriate posts on the starter solenoid.

I used 60 amp fuses on those 2 wires. I used circuit breakers to feed the dash. And 20 fuses between the alternator and dash

 

[jrsavoie]

jd110
Yes relay JD offered for 24 volt system was a 24 volt relay AT71088 Relay -STARTER SOLENOID (24V) ADD 87.92 USD

I also never installed or seen a 24 volt system with relay installed but was aware of it's availability

I am curious as to how this relay wired in.

sINCE THE yellow wire was only 12 volts, I used a 12 volt relay on that exciter wire going to the solenoid. I didn't really think that wire needed a relay since it was the exciter wire and shouldn't have to carry a load.

I could not figure out where else on the starter system a relay would help. There does seem to be a weak spot between the brown wire and the the batteries

 

[LouNY]

Here is a link to a simpler 24 volt start / 12 volt run system, at one time they where quite common and there are several places one can find these series / parallel solenoids.
12 Volt DC 1500 amp Starter relay replaces Delco 1119845 - 9-845 10-D1602.

 

[jrsavoie]

Here is a link to a simpler 24 volt start / 12 volt run system, at one time they where quite common and there are several places one can find these series / parallel solenoids.
12 Volt DC 1500 amp Starter relay replaces Delco 1119845 - 9-845 10-D1602.

My generator light quit working not long ago.

What are my options to replace the generator light? IS there a John Deere part number? I searched for about 45 minutes and never got any good results.

I would not mind replacing the generator light with an amp or voltage gauge. Not sure what would wire in direct replacement of the light - using the same wires.

The instructions for the alternator said to switch the light from positive ground to negative ground - Done.

And hook the black wire that went to the voltage regulator to the white wire off the 24 volt isolated ground, AC Delco alternator

All of that was done and the light worked for a while. - Weeks. The bulb was very bright - Could I have had it 24 volt? It's possible I used the tester to test for polarity that I was using on the relay and everything I tested was Negative ground because the polarity indicator wasn't working