1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system

   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system #1  

jrsavoie

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1975 Ford backhoe/loader 3 cylinder diesel, 2022 Kubota LX2610, 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel wide front, 1996 Toro 223D Groundsmaster, 1998 Toro Groundsmaster 325D 4x4 72" deck cab & snowblower
1963 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system

Now the starter is just clicking when you go to start the tractor. It starts if you hit it a 2nd or 3rd time. $ hits of the key is the most it has taken so far.

The tractor starts as soon as the starter turns.

To me it acts like a solenoid issue. It also looks like the solenoid may be easy to swap on the tractor.

Batteries have plenty of voltage

There is one battery cable to frame connection I have yet to check. I am guessing it is good also.

They said the starter was rebuilt shortly before I bought the tractor. I would think that would mean it got a new solenoid also - it looks fairly new.

New doesn't mean good. Especially if they used a cheap aftermarket.

IS the solenoid easily swapped?

What is the best solenoid to buy? Where to buy? And what price should I be looking at?

$45 from the local rebuilder
 
   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system #2  
If it was my tractor I'd add a solenoid relay which BTW JD offered as a kit which should increase amps on the original starter exciter wire.
 

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   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system
  • Thread Starter
#3  
If it was my tractor I'd add a solenoid relay which BTW JD offered as a kit which should increase amps on the original starter exciter wire.

Thanks for the advice. I have some mountable relay sockets and relays I picked up for a reasonable price.

How many amp wire do I need from the Battery to the relay and relay to starter?
 
   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system #4  
The solenoid is available from John Deere part number AR40395 for $34.88. Not sure who it is supplied from. The original Delco Remy solenoid is no longer furnished. Obsolete unfortunately, They were the best quality.
 
   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system
  • Thread Starter
#5  
The solenoid is available from John Deere part number AR40395 for $34.88. Not sure who it is supplied from. The original Delco Remy solenoid is no longer furnished. Obsolete unfortunately, They were the best quality.

There is a solenoid advertised on Ebay that says Made in the USA.

I also have the fuel gauge thread. I noticed on the fuel gauge that if I turned the key just right the fuel gauge would move. Since I have the tank near empty - about 3" from the bottom - I would not expect it to move much.

It does make me wonder if I am having an ignition switch issue as opposed to a solenoid issue.

I will install the starter relay. Sounds like a good idea
 
   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system #6  
1963 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system

Now the starter is just clicking when you go to start the tractor. It starts if you hit it a 2nd or 3rd time. $ hits of the key is the most it has taken so far.

The tractor starts as soon as the starter turns.

To me it acts like a solenoid issue. It also looks like the solenoid may be easy to swap on the tractor.

Batteries have plenty of voltage

There is one battery cable to frame connection I have yet to check. I am guessing it is good also.

They said the starter was rebuilt shortly before I bought the tractor. I would think that would mean it got a new solenoid also - it looks fairly new.

New doesn't mean good. Especially if they used a cheap aftermarket.

IS the solenoid easily swapped?

What is the best solenoid to buy? Where to buy? And what price should I be looking at?

$45 from the local rebuilder

Does that solenoid come apart? Back in the 4010's time I had a mechanical shop, and couldn't count the number of solenoids and starters that I "rebuilt" with nothing more than hand tools. A clicking starter was my favorite, because if a solenoid clicked, the most common problem was that the internal high amp copper contacts needed to be cleaned up. A few strokes of the file and reassemble. It's worth a look.
And if the solenoid didn't fix it, the next place to look was at the starter brushes. It was a rare starter/solenoid that I couldn't get going again in half an hour for a couple of bucks in parts.
A new solenoid for $45.00 sounds a little high but not too much. Frankly I'd rather have the old OEM starter and solenoid refurbished than a brand new one. And I'll bet than an old OEM type refurbished will outlast a new one. One reason for that is the quality of the wire used for the coil windings inside both, the quality of the brush & commutator assembly, and the metal of the parts that engage the ring gear.
Luck, rScotty
 
   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system
  • Thread Starter
#7  
If it was my tractor I'd add a solenoid relay which BTW JD offered as a kit which should increase amps on the original starter exciter wire.

Is there a place to find a schematic of that kit?

When I installed the Solenoid the tractor fired right up.

When I installed the relay - nothing. the relay clicked but nothing happened _ I used a 4 pin 40 amp automotive relay. I have some 5 pin 50 amp automotive relays and sockets here.

The 40 amp relays I had were pre-wired.

I started testing. There is 12 volts positive at the solenoid exciter stud at all times - even with the exciter wire off.

The exciter wire is 12 volt positive with the key in the start position.

The brown wire to the starter is 12 volt positive. so I sourced power feed to the relay from that.

I sourced ground from the starter case, as all wires that tested 12 + that is what I used for a negative lead.

I am suspicious that I should have gone to the battery to source positive and negative to the relay.

EDit
I was incorrect on the voltage of the yellow exciter wire - it is 12 negative.

I used a tester in which the negative indicator no longer works. This morning I checked that tester on the battery and it did not show any difference when the leads were swapped.

I used another tester and it showed the yellow exciter wire as being 12 volt negative. The whole relay was wired backwards. I hope it didn't fry the relay.

Back out to rewire the relay, see if that works, If that doesn't work, I will try eliminating the relay again.

Do relays work with a positive ground? Or do they have to be specifically for that?

Would I hook the ground to the blue wire or the positive to the blue wire.

It seems that maybe I should use the wire that was going to the posite feed to ground and the wire that was going to ground to the blue wire if positive or negative voltage is a concern with the relay

I moved the power source from the brown wire to the blue wire and the tractor started
 
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   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system
  • Thread Starter
#8  
Does that solenoid come apart? Back in the 4010's time I had a mechanical shop, and couldn't count the number of solenoids and starters that I "rebuilt" with nothing more than hand tools. A clicking starter was my favorite, because if a solenoid clicked, the most common problem was that the internal high amp copper contacts needed to be cleaned up. A few strokes of the file and reassemble. It's worth a look.
And if the solenoid didn't fix it, the next place to look was at the starter brushes. It was a rare starter/solenoid that I couldn't get going again in half an hour for a couple of bucks in parts.
A new solenoid for $45.00 sounds a little high but not too much. Frankly I'd rather have the old OEM starter and solenoid refurbished than a brand new one. And I'll bet than an old OEM type refurbished will outlast a new one. One reason for that is the quality of the wire used for the coil windings inside both, the quality of the brush & commutator assembly, and the metal of the parts that engage the ring gear.
Luck, rScotty

I've had starters apart and messed with them before. I've never tried taking a SOLENOID apart.

I have the old solenoid here.

Is there a possibility I could have the solenoid pushed to far back? This solenoid had 4 slots. The old solenoid had 2 slots and 2 round holes.

I had to push pretty hard on the solenoid to get mounting bolts in the same position relative to the 2 holes on the original solenoid.

That solenoid did not look old. The previous owner said they had recently rebuilt the starter and I am guessing they installed the solenoid then.
 
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   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system #9  
".

I've had starters apart and messed with them before. I've never tried taking a SOLENOID apart.

I have the old solenoid here.

Is there a possibility I could have the solenoid pushed to far back? This solenoid had 4 slots. The old solenoid had 2 slots and 2 round holes.

I had to push pretty hard on the solenoid to get mounting bolts in the same position relative to the 2 holes on the original solenoid.

That solenoid did not look old. The previous owner said they had recently rebuilt the starter and I am guessing they installed the solenoid then.

Good question about polarity. It turns out that solenoids and relays don't care about polarity. they are both basically just an hollow electromagnet that pulls a steel slug into itself - and in the act of pulling that slug they cause a set of contacts to close so that the exciter current "turns on" a heavy amperage working current..

It sounds to me that your tractor is a positive ground. Good on you for figuring that out. Be sure that the connection from the battery positive terminal to the tractor frame or motor block is clean and tight. That ground connection from the battery to the tractor frame and motor block has got to be real good or nothing will ever work quite right.

With the frame and motor block being your positive ground, that means the exciter wire on the relay and the starter solenoid will both be negative when you turn the key or hit the starter.....and that one of the heavy terminals on the solenoid will always be negative as well. In fact, that wire on one of the heavy solenoid terminals is best if it goes directly back to the negative terminal of the battery.

So now we've checked that one of those heavy terminals on the solenoid should go directly to the negative of the battery, and the other terminal on that solenoid goes to the starter - often via a short heavy wire or strap to carry a much higher starter amperage.

All the starter solenoid really does is to simply act as a excited switch between the battery and the starter. The solenoid is just an electromagnetically powered switch.

You can test your solenoid by making sure that the metal of the solenoid case or mounting screw is connected to the positive terminal of the battery and then taking a negative lead from that battery and touching the exciter stud on the solenoid. It should jump and make a loud "clack". If it doesn't do that, it's no good and probably the wires of the electromagnet coil inside have melted. But If it does jump and clack you know it is at least half good, because the "clack" is the sound of the internal copper contacts smacking together. I don't think you can hurt one by pushing on the mounting screws, but give it the "clack" test.

After the contacts smack together a few thousand times, those internal copper contacts tend to get arc-burnt and don't pass enough current to work the starter motor. You know that's the problem when you have to keep hitting the starter button and listening to the clack until finally you hit it just right and the starter finally begins to turn. In that case, just open up the solenoid - most can be opened up - and file or sandpaper the points. Reassemble and done.

luck, rScotty
 
   / 1963 John Deere 4010 diesel Starter Solenoid 24 volt system #10  
JD 4010 diesel electrical system is both positive & negative ground with starter/generator/voltage regulater isolated from tractor frame with NO ground + or -. Starter solenoid is engaged by completing 24 volt circuit but not by means of a ground.
 

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