10% Ethanol, Heads Up!

[MossRoad]

John,

As in the individual experiences, perceptions, pre-conceived notions... regarding ethanol and small engine failures, it's certainly possible that one could experience such a reduction in fuel mileage with E10 but I'd suggest to you that these are on the margins.

Most reports that I've read on this and my own experience suggests that there's a small reduction in mileage with E10, perhaps in the 1.5% range but no greater than 3%.

Off the top of my head what your numbers suggest to me is that either there's zero energy content in ethanol, that it somehow inhibits the combustion of the gasoline content of the E10 formulate or that it in some other way is causing your engine to perform suboptimally. I know for a fact that the first two are just not the case.

Over the past year or so the Chinese car market has become the largest in the world. I'm sure India at some point in the not so distant future will be competing for that distinction. Such developments will only increase pressure on price and availability of our motor fuel supply here in the US. As I mentioned, Brazil's experience certainly suggests that ethanol is a viable alternative.

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

 

[keegs]

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

Indeed...they produce enough for domestic and export markets and my guess is they use it for fodder too.

We could probably include cane and in our mix of ethanol feedstock. And with the right commitment, maybe in a few years we'll be making it from solid waste and grasses.

 

[Chuck52]

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

I don't know what the actual numbers are, and given the controversial nature of the topic, I don't think I'm up to digging through the many sources to see if I can come to any conclusion I trust. It does seem to me that the best hope for ethanol as a portable power source, a bridge between our existing petroleum based transportation and whatever future energy source we eventually use for transportation, is if someone develops an energy efficient conversion of cellulose to fermentable sugars. I know that is being researched, and at least the ethanol-from-corn system we have going now may serve as part of some future, more desirable process for converting cellulosic materials to ethanol.

Chuck

 

[MossRoad]

I don't know what the actual numbers are, and given the controversial nature of the topic, I don't think I'm up to digging through the many sources to see if I can come to any conclusion I trust. It does seem to me that the best hope for ethanol as a portable power source, a bridge between our existing petroleum based transportation and whatever future energy source we eventually use for transportation, is if someone develops an energy efficient conversion of cellulose to fermentable sugars. I know that is being researched, and at least the ethanol-from-corn system we have going now may serve as part of some future, more desirable process for converting cellulosic materials to ethanol.

Chuck

I think there are several influences on different avenues regarding automobile fuel. Oil, VS corn, VS other organic matter and none of them play nice with each other. Their goal is to make as much money for their stock holders as possible, which means getting us to use as much of their product as possible in the most wasteful ways possible, while making us feel good about using a crummy product. Kind of like VHS and Microsoft Windows. :laughing:

 

[Chuck52]

I think there are several influences on different avenues regarding automobile fuel. Oil, VS corn, VS other organic matter and none of them play nice with each other. Their goal is to make as much money for their stock holders as possible, which means getting us to use as much of their product as possible in the most wasteful ways possible, while making us feel good about using a crummy product. Kind of like VHS and Microsoft Windows. :laughing:

Yep. That darn profit motive can be a b****. :laughing:

 

[Duffster]

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

How much feed is left over from using sugar?

Not sure how you come to the conclusion it "wastes" energy. Show me a motor fuel that doesn't require energy to refine it into a usable state.

 

[California]

Is Deere or anyone designing farm tractors that run on Ethanol?

Likewise semis. It seems like the farmers in the corn belt could reduce their fuel costs if they bought local ethanol.

Would this work?

 

[MossRoad]

How much feed is left over from using sugar?

Not sure how you come to the conclusion it "wastes" energy. Show me a motor fuel that doesn't require energy to refine it into a usable state.

The waste is in the conversion process. By converting corn into ethanol more than half of the original BTU energy that was in the corn before the conversion is now gone. Then you have to add in the lost BTUs of the energy that was used in the process of converting it from corn to ethanol and the BTU losses are staggering.

Each time we convert something from one state to another we lose BTUs. That's why is was determined that it would be smarter, cleaner and much more efficient to burn corn to heat homes and burn natural gas as automobile fuel. America has abundant sources of both of those. All of the BTU energy in the corn would go to produce heat and it takes much less energy to make natural gas burnable in automobiles than it does to make crude oil into gasoline.

Look, I'm not anti-farmer and I'm not anti-corn. I am anti-waste which makes me anti-corn ethanol. It is an extremely wasteful process when you start adding up the BTUs lost.

 

[IslandTractor]

Look, I'm not anti-farmer and I'm not anti-corn. I am anti-waste which makes me anti-corn ethanol. It is an extremely wasteful process when you start adding up the BTUs lost.

Great summary of the argument. Couldn't agree more but I'd add that figuring out how to use energy more efficiently is probably the single most important element in this whole business. A 20% increase in efficiency (mpg or home heating or electric use) is, with individual and national resolve, achievable right now. That would cut oil imports and free up funds for investment in even more efficient systems right here.

 

[MossRoad]

Great summary of the argument. Couldn't agree more but I'd add that figuring out how to use energy more efficiently is probably the single most important element in this whole business. A 20% increase in efficiency (mpg or home heating or electric use) is, with individual and national resolve, achievable right now. That would cut oil imports and free up funds for investment in even more efficient systems right here.

I agree. However, who's funds is it going to free up? If we spend less $$ on gasoline, oil companies will charge more. They certainly won't spend their money on ways to get us to use less of their product. That's one of the problems with a consumption based economy. How do we get out of it? Heck, I don't have a clue! :confused2: