10% Ethanol, Heads Up!

[MossRoad]

John,

As in the individual experiences, perceptions, pre-conceived notions... regarding ethanol and small engine failures, it's certainly possible that one could experience such a reduction in fuel mileage with E10 but I'd suggest to you that these are on the margins.

Most reports that I've read on this and my own experience suggests that there's a small reduction in mileage with E10, perhaps in the 1.5% range but no greater than 3%.

Off the top of my head what your numbers suggest to me is that either there's zero energy content in ethanol, that it somehow inhibits the combustion of the gasoline content of the E10 formulate or that it in some other way is causing your engine to perform suboptimally. I know for a fact that the first two are just not the case.

Over the past year or so the Chinese car market has become the largest in the world. I'm sure India at some point in the not so distant future will be competing for that distinction. Such developments will only increase pressure on price and availability of our motor fuel supply here in the US. As I mentioned, Brazil's experience certainly suggests that ethanol is a viable alternative.

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

 

[keegs]

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

Indeed...they produce enough for domestic and export markets and my guess is they use it for fodder too.

We could probably include cane and in our mix of ethanol feedstock. And with the right commitment, maybe in a few years we'll be making it from solid waste and grasses.

 

[Chuck52]

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

I don't know what the actual numbers are, and given the controversial nature of the topic, I don't think I'm up to digging through the many sources to see if I can come to any conclusion I trust. It does seem to me that the best hope for ethanol as a portable power source, a bridge between our existing petroleum based transportation and whatever future energy source we eventually use for transportation, is if someone develops an energy efficient conversion of cellulose to fermentable sugars. I know that is being researched, and at least the ethanol-from-corn system we have going now may serve as part of some future, more desirable process for converting cellulosic materials to ethanol.

Chuck

 

[MossRoad]

I don't know what the actual numbers are, and given the controversial nature of the topic, I don't think I'm up to digging through the many sources to see if I can come to any conclusion I trust. It does seem to me that the best hope for ethanol as a portable power source, a bridge between our existing petroleum based transportation and whatever future energy source we eventually use for transportation, is if someone develops an energy efficient conversion of cellulose to fermentable sugars. I know that is being researched, and at least the ethanol-from-corn system we have going now may serve as part of some future, more desirable process for converting cellulosic materials to ethanol.

Chuck

I think there are several influences on different avenues regarding automobile fuel. Oil, VS corn, VS other organic matter and none of them play nice with each other. Their goal is to make as much money for their stock holders as possible, which means getting us to use as much of their product as possible in the most wasteful ways possible, while making us feel good about using a crummy product. Kind of like VHS and Microsoft Windows. :laughing:

 

[Chuck52]

I think there are several influences on different avenues regarding automobile fuel. Oil, VS corn, VS other organic matter and none of them play nice with each other. Their goal is to make as much money for their stock holders as possible, which means getting us to use as much of their product as possible in the most wasteful ways possible, while making us feel good about using a crummy product. Kind of like VHS and Microsoft Windows. :laughing:

Yep. That darn profit motive can be a b****. :laughing:

 

[Duffster]

On a side note... Brazil makes ethanol from sugar cane, not corn. A huge difference. Cane produces more than twice as much ethanol per acre than corn and takes less energy to convert to ethanol.

Corn as a liquid automobile fuel wastes energy. It doe not creates energy.

How much feed is left over from using sugar?

Not sure how you come to the conclusion it "wastes" energy. Show me a motor fuel that doesn't require energy to refine it into a usable state.

 

[California]

Is Deere or anyone designing farm tractors that run on Ethanol?

Likewise semis. It seems like the farmers in the corn belt could reduce their fuel costs if they bought local ethanol.

Would this work?

 

[MossRoad]

How much feed is left over from using sugar?

Not sure how you come to the conclusion it "wastes" energy. Show me a motor fuel that doesn't require energy to refine it into a usable state.

The waste is in the conversion process. By converting corn into ethanol more than half of the original BTU energy that was in the corn before the conversion is now gone. Then you have to add in the lost BTUs of the energy that was used in the process of converting it from corn to ethanol and the BTU losses are staggering.

Each time we convert something from one state to another we lose BTUs. That's why is was determined that it would be smarter, cleaner and much more efficient to burn corn to heat homes and burn natural gas as automobile fuel. America has abundant sources of both of those. All of the BTU energy in the corn would go to produce heat and it takes much less energy to make natural gas burnable in automobiles than it does to make crude oil into gasoline.

Look, I'm not anti-farmer and I'm not anti-corn. I am anti-waste which makes me anti-corn ethanol. It is an extremely wasteful process when you start adding up the BTUs lost.

 

[IslandTractor]

Look, I'm not anti-farmer and I'm not anti-corn. I am anti-waste which makes me anti-corn ethanol. It is an extremely wasteful process when you start adding up the BTUs lost.

Great summary of the argument. Couldn't agree more but I'd add that figuring out how to use energy more efficiently is probably the single most important element in this whole business. A 20% increase in efficiency (mpg or home heating or electric use) is, with individual and national resolve, achievable right now. That would cut oil imports and free up funds for investment in even more efficient systems right here.

 

[MossRoad]

Great summary of the argument. Couldn't agree more but I'd add that figuring out how to use energy more efficiently is probably the single most important element in this whole business. A 20% increase in efficiency (mpg or home heating or electric use) is, with individual and national resolve, achievable right now. That would cut oil imports and free up funds for investment in even more efficient systems right here.

I agree. However, who's funds is it going to free up? If we spend less $$ on gasoline, oil companies will charge more. They certainly won't spend their money on ways to get us to use less of their product. That's one of the problems with a consumption based economy. How do we get out of it? Heck, I don't have a clue! :confused2:

 

[Oliver1655]

Going back to the comment made about fuel caps swelling, unless I have bought ethanol gas that was not labeled, I have had the same problem using regular unleaded gas. It may be some additive being used in both types of fuel. I had been buying most of my fuel from Casey's who does label their pumps. However after reading this article: Fuel for Pro Saws , I have started going another station which has 89 octane fuel without ethanol. :confused2:

 

[archerm3]

I recently bought gas from the filling station at Fortt Hood. Didn't think anything of it at the time, but that gas has played havoc with my chain saws and gas weed eater. The gas caps on the chain saws have swollen to the point where they must be removed with pliers and the brand new Echo weedeater carbuerator is fouled to the point that it will not reach maximum rpm. In case anyone is skeptical, I have had the saws for several years and have had no problem until I used that gas. The weedeater problem was confirmed by the repair shop doing the warranty repairs.
It appears to be another example of our Federal government helping us out.

That would be your STATE government helping you out, not the feds.

 

[dmccarty]

Needed gas for the chainsaw so I stopped at the gas station last night. The first station I stopped at is a bit easier to get my truck into and out of. It is usually not as busy as the nearest gas station to the house and this station has diesel. I used to stop there frequently for diesel but have stopped because the diesel pumps have had constant problems most of the year. Pumps either not working or working slow. Slow as in 30 minutes to fill up.

Then the station changed the amount of money you could put on a charge card so you had to swipe the card 2-3 times to pay or walking into the store twice to pay. So I stopped using the station for diesel.

Last night I stopped for a single gallon of gas. Figured they could handle it.

I was wrong. Got the can ready to go, put in my credit card and the pump beeped and said see the clerk. I said see ya.

Went to the gas station near the house and the card worked just fine. So I guess I will just not use the station with diesel anymore. I tried. I get fuel for the truck and tractor at a place out side of town. The owner sits at the register. Nice guy. I still have to walk in to pay but at least I do not have to walk in twice. Nor swipe the card a gabillion times to fill up.

Now the point of all of this is not my issue with walking in to the store twice. Or having to swipe the card a bunch of times which then requires me to add up a bunch of number to figure out my costs and MPG.

I just had to get that off my chest.

The gas station that would not take my card had 10% Ethanol in the gas. Maybe. Those were their words on the pump. It might have 10% Ethanol.

The station near the house did not have such a sign. I thought all the gas in my area had Ethanol so either they don't or they don't have a sign.

Later,
Dan

 

[keegs]

It was back in the seventies, but do you remember those unattended DIY filling stations on rt 158 to/from the Outer Banks with those dollar bill machines?

Those were a gas...NPI

 

[Skyco]

IIRC NC is one of the states that doesn't require pump labeling about ethanol.
I always fill up in SC before I enter NC going to my camp. NC's fuel tax is 10 cents more per gallon than SC's....although some of our elected are trying to get it raised in SC too

re: the card reader pumps...that to me is the biggest nuisance with owning a diesel pickup, lots of places have the readers on all the pumps except the diesel pump...I absolutely refuse to go in and prepay and stand in line with all the lottery ticket/beer/cigarette buyers. I once left my credit card with a fuel counter gal at a Kangaroo station to "prepay", since I didn't know exactly how much I needed...went back in after pumping and the doofus had left my card laying on the counter in reach of any dishonest customer...and she had her back turned doing something else:shocked: I'll never do that again...

 

[dmccarty]

It was back in the seventies, but do you remember those unattended DIY filling stations on rt 158 to/from the Outer Banks with those dollar bill machines?

Those were a gas...NPI

Well...

No.

I did not live in NC back in the 70s.

And this might be viewed as sacrilege but I really do not like the beach. :laughing:

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

IIRC NC is one of the states that doesn't require pump labeling about ethanol.
I always fill up in SC before I enter NC going to my camp. NC's fuel tax is 10 cents more per gallon than SC's....although some of our elected are trying to get it raised in SC too

I hate to say this.....

But if SC will use the extra money to improve I95 I am all for the tax increase. I95 is great in FLA and GA. NC is kinda bad. I95 in SC stinks. But there is some work going on in SC that maybe will improve things. The problem is the section in the swamp. That will be expensive to expand. To be fair we skip most of I95 in NC. :laughing: We take the back roads when heading south and get on I95 right at the NC/SC border.

What really gets me is that NC is talking about putting up tolls on I95. The legislature allowed Toll Roads a few years ago to fund a highway in the Raleigh area. The build the north loop around Raleigh but they did not want to spend the money to finished the south loop. So they are allowing a Toll Road.

I thought that all gas in my area of NC had to be Ethanol because of air quality standards. I have not had any problems that I can remember due to Ethanol in my engines and I have been buying gas from the same two locations for over 10 years.

Never thought of this before...

Skyco, where you in the Dodge Caravan with two women on I95 about 18 years ago. They did a flip flop on I95 and pulled in front of me when I was in the fast lane. I had to slam on the brakes to keep from hitting them.

The man in the back seat mooned me. Was that you? :laughing:

Later,
Dan