'08 Superduty recall

[Rara Avis]

To this day, I still can't understand how GM could spec a duramax diesel in '01 that met pollution specs though 2010, while Ford would spec a 6L diesel later in '03 that falls short of '08 pollution specs.

Well, GM had to add the emission controls to the 2007 1/2 trucks...

Which is why I bought a 2007 C&C w/o emission controls...

 

[Builder]

Well, GM had to add the emission controls to the 2007 1/2 trucks...

They all did! Everything from a pickup to a big rig! But at least the dmax is still the same design. Ford dropped the 6L and had to introduce an entirely new engine. They're going to do it again in 2010!

Which is why I bought a 2007 C&C w/o emission controls...

Likewise. Aren't we smart?

 

[jcmseven]

Builder,

In your last comment, I had a revelation. You actually said something with which I agree. If it is indeed true that Ford is conjuring up another diesel for 2010 that would be a really bad thing for its current consumers. Interestingly, most of the mid-level and up people I know through the company have not been told this problem. The relations with Navistar and Ford currently are strained, but by inside report are better than 6 months ago. If there is a diesel in final development outside the scope of their relationship, it most likely is to offer Ford a chance to maintain supply should the relationship sour further. This is not new. When I was in private practice I took care of the recently-retired chief engineer for Ford SD trucks. Even when the 7.3 was out, he said Ford had an active engine program going looking at whether they could effectively produce a diesel engine for these trucks. It never materialized and ultimately was decided not cost effective. As you mentioned, the 2008 6.4L diesel in its current configuration is not 2010 emissions legal, but Navistar has the exhaust setup ready to go to make it 2010 emissions legal in---2010. This also applies to the 4.5L small engine. This is apparently not going to be an issue. The betting folks among the Ford people I know feel reasonably strongly that the Navistar/Ford relationship will likely continue in some format. We will have to see.

John M

 

[jcmseven]

One more thing....I looked at the Ford/Peugeot link. It seems to me to mainly refer to a 2.2L small diesel for European cars and light commercial applications. I could not find any indication in my reading about a strong link that Ford wanted to replace Navistar in light duty applications. Did I miss the link here, or was this some sensationalism to make a point?? Can someone help me here??? I will go back and look at the article again to make sure there was nothing I missed.

John M

 

[Bird]

Builder, I think the Duramax would be my preference, and you can certainly criticize Ford all you want (whether justified or not might be a matter of opinion), but if you look around in my area at the number of Ford diesel trucks vs the number of GM diesel trucks vs the number of Dodge diesel trucks, it sure looks like Ford must be doing something right since I'd bet there's at least 2 or 3 times as many Fords as all the others combined. And yep, my brother recently bought a new 2008 F550. He said he'd have bought a Duramax if it hadn't been for the cab design that you had to climb higher to get into. But his last two trucks have been Ford F350 diesels, and so far, he loves everything about this new one except the fuel mileage. But of course it's new, 3,500 miles on it and leaving tomorrow on a 2,000+ miles trip, so only time will tell.

 

[john_bud]

Bird,

Last year we went to Yellowstone for vacation. One evening we were sitting outside at a picnic table eating icecream cones overlooking a main road in/out of the park on the N side. Just for giggles I started a mental tally of the diesel trucks going in / out. It was about 10-1 Chevy duramax over Ford and about 3-1 Dodge over Ford. Not a scientific study, just a guy watching traffic for about 60 min. That trend seemed to hold true for the whole week at the park.

Around here it's about 1:1 Chevy to Ford.

jb

 

[Egon]

If someone wishes to donate a new diesel P/U to a good cause I'll surely take whichever of the three they offer! And nary a complaint will there be.

Those Hot Rocks must have been hard on the tires. Or were you Hauling "Hot Rocks"?

 

[Bird]

Bird,

Last year we went to Yellowstone for vacation. One evening we were sitting outside at a picnic table eating icecream cones overlooking a main road in/out of the park on the N side. Just for giggles I started a mental tally of the diesel trucks going in / out. It was about 10-1 Chevy duramax over Ford and about 3-1 Dodge over Ford. Not a scientific study, just a guy watching traffic for about 60 min. That trend seemed to hold true for the whole week at the park.

Around here it's about 1:1 Chevy to Ford.

jb

John, maybe that was because you were looking at vacationers instead of workers. Of course, I've not done any valid survey either, so I actually have no idea what the real numbers are; just seems that there are Fords everywhere and now and then a GM or Dodge, but I could certainly be wrong on this.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Last I read which was few years back, maybe 2006, was Ford sold about 60% of all diesel trucks. GM and Dodge shared the remainder with Dodge only having about 17%. I also remember that nearly 70% of all Fords F-250 and higher were diesel.

Around my area, a closed down GM town, the majority of the GM's are driven by retirees pulling 5th wheel campers. The Dodges seem to all be driven by kids with stacks, big tires, and roll black smoke. The Fords are driven by the farmers and construction workers. Again this is just my observation.

Chris

 

[jcmseven]

I have also noticed a couple of things about HD truck demographics here: first, do not go to the Pioneer restaurant here in town in a non-Ford product. You WILL be escorted to the door or likely will not enjoy the delicious pancakes well. Most of those in my area that inhabit this restaurant use the trucks heavily for work-related duties and they will spend the money it takes to outfit their HD truck to meet their needs. It seems that Ford has placed whole focus on the use of its trucks for pulling and stability while pulling. This makes them very popular among the Pioneer patrons. This is NOT to say the others do not pull well as they all do, merely that it seems Ford primarily wanted a pulling truck as evidenced by its size, weight and some features which really would interest pulling-type people. They also seem less manuverable without trailer than perhaps the GM or Dodge product. Second, as many of you know, my good friend has a GMC truck--one which I have likely driven nearly as much as he and like. It seems to me that if one wants a highly manuverable daily-driver type diesel that has a lot of capability without much compromise, GM is a great choice. This may be the reason I see so many pulling travel trailers with them, as we also see here in WNC. It seems an excellent vehicle for those who pull alot, but then would like to unhook and go into town and be able to park somewhere. I have felt this is also why they are popular with magazine editors, they handle the least like a big truck of the three. It seems to me most of those who buy Dodge in my area do so because of one thing: the engine. My carwash guy has a 2500 Dodge, and he tells me weekly about the things he dislikes about it--yet always finishes by saying he loves the engine. That said, he says it is the best truck he has ever had--although the first HD truck. He has had all three brands of 1/2 tons over the years. He does not go to the Pioneer restaurant though for the reasons noted above. This is what I have observed in my area, but may be influenced in part by the dealer network which is heavily Ford. That said, I do not see many I know changing brands much once they have bought what they want originally. I would say roughly 80%+ of my locale's HD trucks are Ford's (a lot of them 2008) with very few GM and Dodge products among the locals. In the vacationers or passers through, it is more equal between the three, except at the Pioneer.

John M

 

[chh]

Well after looking at all 3 brands this last week, I went with Ford. F-350 V-10. I am not at all sure about the supposed benefits of diesel after owning one for 10 years. I talked to 6 dealers in the last week. The price of diesel has started to effect sales here in Ok. The Ford dealer I ended up buying at(my son works there ) has sold 5 gas F350's since Monday and 1 diesel. 5 of the 6 trucks traded in were diesel. Left on the lot as of yesterday; 1 gas F350 and about 25 diesels in 350's,450's and 550's. The dealer is worried he is not going to be get enough gas trucks ordered in to meet demand. Trade in values are still higher on diesels, but the market is softening in the dealer auctions according to my son, so if fuel prices don't get more equal between gas and diesel that may begin to change. IMO

 

[jcmseven]

chh-

I personally think you made a good choice. The V10 engine is a great engine. I had one in a 2001 250 and at that time it was a gas hog. It ran really well, just not as well as the diesel. Now, the shoe seems on the other foot. Progressive improvements to the V10 have made it a viable choice. It is very strong and while not as strong as the 6.4L it is close in everyday driving. It also will about match it on mileage, if not in some cases do better. It also has the longevity. My neighbor has a 2001 Excursion with 270,000+ miles on it that still runs great with the V10. In truth, there are not many of us that would keep a diesel that long. It the tests that I have seen, the V10 is a little slower than the GM V8, buts gains almost all of that unloaded difference back when pulling-again Ford's modus operandi for the truck. It is also, again, in a much heavier truck in curb weight, so for its size it is a stout performer. Enjoy your new truck.

John M

 

[Builder]

It's human nature when you're brand loyal like some of you guys are to notice more trucks of your brand.

I am not brand loyal anymore. I freed myself of those miserable chains a few years ago. Before that, all I would consider is Ford. Now I buy whoever makes the best truck, tractor, saw, drill, whatever, when I need to buy one.

Sticking up for one brand or another, no matter what that particular brand does, is stupid. It does not allow the buyer to get the best product offered at that time.

I am not brand loyal to GM. However, I know that when I bought my truck last year, I bought the best, most proven truck with the longest warranty for the lowest price without caring what emblem was on the front.

I'll do the same thing next time I buy.

chh,

You definately bought the best gas powered truck. Ford's V-10 is a pretty nice engine. Look for a replacement for the V-10 ond the GM 6L gas in about 4 months.

 

[Bird]

Builder, I'd at least partially agree with you. I'm not brand loyal either. I've not personally owned a diesel truck, but I've owned Ford, Chevrolet, and Dodge pickups; liked all of them. For cars, I've owned Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Cadillac, Studebaker, Plymouth, Chrysler, Dodge, Ford, and Mercury, as well as an Isuzu diesel sedan and Suzuki Samurai.

But when you say "allow the buyer to get the best product offered at that time" . . . well, you hope so, but never know for sure. I've owned one real lemon in my life and that was a brand new 1966 Ford Fairlane 500 with a 289 V-8 (a long time proven engine at that time).

On the other hand, sometimes buying something new and unproven turns out well. I generally prefer to wait a couple of years to see how a new product turns out, but a couple of the most trouble free vehicles I ever owned were the diesel Isuzu and the Suzuki, both vehicles I knew very little about when I bought them because they were fairly new on the market.

But, yes, I agree that I'll buy what I think at the time is the best deal, regardless of brand name, and sometimes I'm right and sometimes I'm not.

 

[Egon]

Now that is a whole mouthful Mr Seven.

Is that all for real?

 

[Rara Avis]

shoot

2007 Dodge Ram 2500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 Engine Type HEMI V8 gas
2008 Ford F-250 FX4 Super Duty Crew Cab 4x4 Engine Type Triton V10 gas
2007 GMC Sierra 2500 HD SLE Crew Cab 4x4 Engine Type Vortec V8 gas

2007 Chevrolet Silverado 3500 LT Crew Cab 4x4 Engine Type Duramax V8
2007 Dodge Ram 3500 SLT Quad Cab 4x4 Engine Type Cummins I6 diesel
2008 Ford F-350 King Ranch Super Duty Crew Cab 4x4 Engine Type Power Stroke V8 diesel

Checkout the rear end ratios...in the article's data tables...


This shootout still seems to favor GM...

 

[Builder]

Yes it does!

Looks like Diamonpilot's observations on tailsquat with a trailer are wrong, too. GM actually squats less than Ford.

The testing crew said they'd park a GMC3500 Duramax in their driveway and never think twice about it!!!

'nuff said.

 

[patrick_g]

Verrrrrrry interesting......

Hardly enough difference in most tests to warrant comment.

Pat

 

[jcmseven]

Yes, Egon, it is for real. They do still preferentially serve at the Pioneer. Just went there today. Some very good eating there. Builder, again we must be careful about this "best" statement. As I have said before in other posts, no one, including myself would or can fault you given the fact you need a solid reliable truck for your business in going with GM. At the time of your purchase, you bought a truck before the unknowns of the emissions standards came into play and most likely before the advent or ready-availability of the 6.4L came into play. I suppose if you were looking for the most proven diesel at the time, the Cummins would have been the choice, but it seems you were looking at the entire powertrain and GM had/has a strong offering in this area. I am neither small-minded nor particularly brand loyal, but I am loyal to my current truck which is a really well-made and has a number of nice features which make it an excellent option for those looking to buy this type truck. I will likely remain so until the product or service forces me elsewhere. Neither you nor I nor any other posters know the future of any of our diesel trucks after 2010 or with the current fuel crunch, but we both know posters and owners of each who are happy with their current rides. I suppose we should enjoy it while it lasts.

John M

 

[RobJ]

Yes, Egon, it is for real. They do still preferentially serve at the Pioneer. Just went there today. Some very good eating there. Builder, again we must be careful about this "best" statement. As I have said before in other posts, no one, including myself would or can fault you given the fact you need a solid reliable truck for your business in going with GM. At the time of your purchase, you bought a truck before the unknowns of the emissions standards came into play and most likely before the advent or ready-availability of the 6.4L came into play. I suppose if you were looking for the most proven diesel at the time, the Cummins would have been the choice, but it seems you were looking at the entire powertrain and GM had/has a strong offering in this area. I am neither small-minded nor particularly brand loyal, but I am loyal to my current truck which is a really well-made and has a number of nice features which make it an excellent option for those looking to buy this type truck. I will likely remain so until the product or service forces me elsewhere. Neither you nor I nor any other posters know the future of any of our diesel trucks after 2010 or with the current fuel crunch, but we both know posters and owners of each who are happy with their current rides. I suppose we should enjoy it while it lasts.

John M

Good points...and all "bad" trucks are not all bad. I have 2 personal friends with the ford 6l. no problems at all. One still has it and probably uses it the hardest. The other sold his and now have a 6.4. His only complaint is the reduced mileage.