'08 Superduty recall

[Builder]

I was reading an article on the Allison transmission. The article was from a company that takes transmissions including the allison and makes them a lot more heavy duty for trucks that have been modified for higher horsppower. The article talked about what needed to be done to the allison to make it heavier duty. I did find one thing interesting. The allison in stock form can take about 75 horses more then the last version of the duramax engine which should mean that it is good for about 435 horse or so. After that it needs more clutches in the clutch pack and higher hydraulic pressures internally. The article said that in a totally stock truck with the duramax engine there is pretty well nothing you can tow or do with the truck that is likely to damage the allison transmission.

A transmission is only as strong as its' weakest link. You really oughta look at the input, output and tailshafts of these things or just crawl under a truck someday before you buy one and take a dig photo of them. The Allison & Aisin look very large in diameter all the way through while the others look a lot more narrow through the tailshaft.

Another thing you need to ask yourself is why does GM warrant the Allison for 100K, but others do not offer as long of a warranty?

I found one of the previous posts interesting they talked about a dodge pickup with a jake brake. I dont know too much about jake brakes but from what I think I know the jake brake is incorporated into the engine itself and it has to be designed with the brake in it. It is not a add on item. I have noticed several places in towns where they have a sign no jake brakes. I am assuming that is because of the noise ?

Yes, the noise & vibration from jakes can shake homes & rattle windows. Exhaust brakes are usually quieter but less effective than a true jake brake.

 

[Builder]

Builder,

I have been posting in this forum since 4/07, and I cannot recall your "ripping" any other brands than Ford in that time, although I could certainly be wrong--but I am apparently not wrong about my Ford purchase. A quick update: we are still running OK, no major failures yet. Actually, no minor failures, either. And my mileage is really not that bad at 15 in combo driving and 17-18 on the road now. I suppose these 6.4's CAN do pretty well on fuel, after all.

John M

Guess you got lucky. j/k

So you've had your truck a whopping year and you're ready to declare your truck "a great ownership experience"? I'd give it at least 7-10 years, then you can reach a more believeable conclusion.

Most 6.4L guys are reporting 10-12 MPG on the diesel truck boards that are working them in truck like applications. Maybe you run unloaded all the time?

I rip my own truck plenty. I don't like it's lack of ground clearance in the middle because of the larger allison trans diameter. I don't like my lower GVWR compared to the competiton. I get 13.9MPG average in all stop/go driving with a 1,500 lb load of utility body & tools on board and some 12K trailer towing. I'm sure I'd do better with a pickup bed and nothing in it. I don't know my highway mileage because I rarely get a chance to drive on one.

Happy now?

 

[gemini5362]

A transmission is only as strong as its' weakest link. You really oughta look at the input, output and tailshafts of these things or just crawl under a truck someday before you buy one and take a dig photo of them. The Allison & Aisin look very large in diameter all the way through while the others look a lot more narrow through the tailshaft.

Another thing you need to ask yourself is why does GM warrant the Allison for 100K, but others do not offer as long of a warranty?



Yes, the noise & vibration from jakes can shake homes & rattle windows. Exhaust brakes are usually quieter but less effective than a true jake brake.

Builder I have a silverado I love my allison transmission that is one of the main reasons I bought a chevrolet pickup. The article I was reading talked about using it behind modified engines. I have read that same type of article before. If you modify your duramax to over 500 horses the allison in the pickups starts to have some problem with slippage issues. If you are going to spend a bunch of money making the duramax engine more powerful you need to spend a bit more and beef up the transmission. The allison seems to be able to take it just needs a bit of help in the clutch department primarily.


Loaded i get in the mid 13's with my 3/4 ton. Empty I can hit 20 or a bit better if i keep the speed down to the speed limit.

 

[RobertN]

I know some Dodge diesel and Ford diesel owners. ALL of the Dodge owners say they would like a better truck (not engine), it's the truck that gives them problems. I don't know how the new ones are rated. I don't listen that much anymore. But a few years ago there were a lot of problems. With the history I still wouldn't buy one.

But on the forums you will usually hear more complaints than praises.

I used to think I'd like a Ford with a Cummins blah blah blah.

My Ram CTD has been a great truck; every bit as good a hauler and reliable as friends with Ford diesels, better mileage, and as comfortable or better, IMHO.

I had Ford 3/4 ton gassers before; my '89 F250 was a GREAT truck. I would still consider another Ford.

But, my RAM has been great for the last 110,000 miles. I got it as a 300,000 miles truck.

Only thing I miss, is all the truck have impressive horsepower and torque gains since I got this truck in '01.

 

[bandit67]

But, my RAM has been great for the last 110,000 miles. I got it as a 300,000 miles truck.

Only thing I miss, is all the truck have impressive horsepower and torque gains since I got this truck in '01.

So get a mild chip to get your hp/tq up to or above the new ones. That engine can take it, and is pretty inexpensive to get power gains. Just do your research and you can find folks that have gotten good, safe gains without compromising engine longevity.

 

[RobertN]

Funny... Now, my Ford F250 was a little older '89 model. I tore the 4x4 IFS out of it, and put a straight axle in. The straight axle was tremendously better(it was a bolt in; the stright axle was offered on the super heavy duty F250 and F350 during those years).

The truck handled better, wheeled better. It also, turned much tighter... For some reason, the Ford IFS had some limits to it; turn radius was pretty poor. Sure, it was a long bed xcab, but other trucks easily out turned it.

The straight axle is much better in a truck that gets used. A street driver, well, maybe not so much.

IMHO, of course

My RAM2500 4x has been great.

We have a Dodge and that's my sentiment - although we've had very few problems with the truck anyway. I do wish it had independent front instead of the solid axle.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Sounds to me like the problem was the Ford IFS of the time (I think the ancient "twin I-beam" design, aka overlapping swing axles, which is about as crude as it gets). The main issue I have with the solid axle front is control when cornering on potholes. In Michigan this is a near-constant occurrence. Bad potholes in a freeway ramp can make things really scary. I don't have the same experience with my suburban (independent front, live axle rear) or prior Jeep Liberty (ditto), not to mention with the fully independent Hondas I had before those. Oh, and we tow a gooseneck horse trailer up to 10k with our Dodge, it's getting used.

The minor issue of a solid front axle is the ride height. High ride height is nice, until you have to park in a garage. Our Dodge won't fit in a lot of garages; I don't think the Ford "super duty" will either. Chevy/GMC heavy duties will fit in most of those same garages.

 

[JESSE1]

The "twin traction beam" was used on the 4x4 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks. Not a real good system. The 1/2 ton trucks had coil springs and the 3/4 tons had leaf springs. One tons had a solid axle with leaf springs. The "twin I Beam" was used on 4x2 trucks and is still being used on the SuperDuties. Much more refined over the years.

 

[Builder]

Ford twin traction beam is vastly different from GM IFS.

 

[RobertN]

The Twin I Beam was also on the 1-tons/F350's. It used a beefier model diff (Dana 55?)than the 3/4 tons(Dana 44 center).

A solid Dana-60 was an option on the F250 and F350.

Those older IFS with that system were prone to sag in front. Rotational stresses on the leaf springs caused them to wear quickly. I know mine did Once I put the straight axle in, all my front end problems were solved

One tons had a solid axle with leaf springs.

 

[jcmseven]

Builder,

I have not heard you rip your truck much, if at all until now--which means you are satisfied. To me, that is a good thing. I have not proclaimed a great ownership experience, just that my pickup has as of yet failed to implode as implied by some that it should. It has been a great truck. No, I do not run unloaded at all times. As mentioned many times in many posts, I pull pretty reasonable loads fairly frequently. Those that have complained about mileage claim they get 10-12 empty and 6-8 pulling. Pulling my roughly 9000 or so pound current load I can get 11-13 mpg depending on how hilly or cold it is. This is running the truck fairly hard; I suspect lighter throttle would dictate 1-2 mpg better. It really does slightly BETTER on fuel when pulling than did my 7.3, but not quite as good empty. I do not drive my truck that much as I have my father's now 214,000 mile GAS 150 (just think what the diesel will do) to run about. So, in response to your statement, I suspect those that are getting less mileage are pulling very heavy loads; taking short trips, and or running a lower rear gear than I; or are running a 350 or up, perhaps in dual rear wheel configuration. No, I do not know how my truck will do 4-5 years down the road, but none of us do. The logic you use cannot work one way and not the other: i.e., owners of these trucks who have used them and been satisfied with them you call "lucky"--though I realize you jest--well, not really. You mention to wait and follow satisfaction down the road--a valid thought. The problem is that the "cat-calling" and bandwagonning does not wait. Perhaps those who have not operated these trucks should be the ones waiting to see. I have yet to meet an owner who is not satisfied with his 6.4L diesel and they are becoming plentiful in our area. The implication also is that perhaps I (and others) do not USE the truck as much. I can say the loads I pull to me necessitate my using a 3/4 ton truck, and I still prefer diesel, so I have one. And finally, it does not make me happy to have you complain about your truck. I want you to be happy with it, and I know you are. I just don't want you to demean mine. Yes, I was skeptical too, but the company and dealer have been good to work with--for ROUTINE service.
I agree, it will be interesting to see how Ford handles the diesel engine over the next three or so years. Hopefully, they will keep this engine, or a derivative of it.
John M

 

[RobJ]

The "twin traction beam" was used on the 4x4 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks. Not a real good system. The 1/2 ton trucks had coil springs and the 3/4 tons had leaf springs. One tons had a solid axle with leaf springs. The "twin I Beam" was used on 4x2 trucks and is still being used on the SuperDuties. Much more refined over the years.

Hehe, the old TTB. I had this on a 90 150 I bought new. After 9 months and several different dealers I finally found one that would fix the pulling problem. They had to replace some bushing and get out the old TTB bender jack to fix it. After that it drove great for 11 years and 180,000 miles. Being my first 4x4 I thought it was normal to get 30k out of a set of BFG Trail TA tires. Not! On my 250 the last set I got about 60k and these are 315x16, not 31x10.50x15. Overall it wasn't a terrible truck, I did have to rebuild the tranny at 160k, only other thing was an alternator and an AC line (junkyard replacement). I had the 351 but really would have preferred the straight 6 in my 86 Ford. I plan on keeping my 99 for another 5-6 years.

 

[Builder]

Builder,

I have not heard you rip your truck much, if at all until now--which means you are satisfied. To me, that is a good thing. I have not proclaimed a great ownership experience, just that my pickup has as of yet failed to implode as implied by some that it should. It has been a great truck. No, I do not run unloaded at all times. As mentioned many times in many posts, I pull pretty reasonable loads fairly frequently. Those that have complained about mileage claim they get 10-12 empty and 6-8 pulling. Pulling my roughly 9000 or so pound current load I can get 11-13 mpg depending on how hilly or cold it is. This is running the truck fairly hard; I suspect lighter throttle would dictate 1-2 mpg better. It really does slightly BETTER on fuel when pulling than did my 7.3, but not quite as good empty. I do not drive my truck that much as I have my father's now 214,000 mile GAS 150 (just think what the diesel will do) to run about. So, in response to your statement, I suspect those that are getting less mileage are pulling very heavy loads; taking short trips, and or running a lower rear gear than I; or are running a 350 or up, perhaps in dual rear wheel configuration. No, I do not know how my truck will do 4-5 years down the road, but none of us do. The logic you use cannot work one way and not the other: i.e., owners of these trucks who have used them and been satisfied with them you call "lucky"--though I realize you jest--well, not really. You mention to wait and follow satisfaction down the road--a valid thought. The problem is that the "cat-calling" and bandwagonning does not wait. Perhaps those who have not operated these trucks should be the ones waiting to see. I have yet to meet an owner who is not satisfied with his 6.4L diesel and they are becoming plentiful in our area. The implication also is that perhaps I (and others) do not USE the truck as much. I can say the loads I pull to me necessitate my using a 3/4 ton truck, and I still prefer diesel, so I have one. And finally, it does not make me happy to have you complain about your truck. I want you to be happy with it, and I know you are. I just don't want you to demean mine. Yes, I was skeptical too, but the company and dealer have been good to work with--for ROUTINE service.
I agree, it will be interesting to see how Ford handles the diesel engine over the next three or so years. Hopefully, they will keep this engine, or a derivative of it.
John M

I agree that they are off to a better start than the 6L ever was. I think my biggest criticism at this point is this looks to be a 2 year motor. Then Ford will abandon it and move to yet another diesel. I think the 6.4L guys will (and should) feel pretty upset about that.

There are problems, though. Check out this thread. Guy lost two 6.4L motors in the same truck:
Just lost my 2nd motor (6.4 diesel) - The Diesel Garage Forums

 

[JESSE1]

Duke, you know you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Even with the mighty 7.3, there were always people who came on the forum who had a truck that had a complete system failure. Everything from pistons swapping holes to axles breaking. Then they would get another one and it would fall flat. I've been buying Ford trucks since '76 and while they have had a few minor problems, so far I've never had a catastrophic failure like some of these characters report.

 

[Builder]

Duke, you know you can't believe everything you read on the internet. Even with the mighty 7.3, there were always people who came on the forum who had a truck that had a complete system failure. Everything from pistons swapping holes to axles breaking. Then they would get another one and it would fall flat. I've been buying Ford trucks since '76 and while they have had a few minor problems, so far I've never had a catastrophic failure like some of these characters report.

If you read his story, he comes off as very believeable.

 

[JESSE1]

I read his story and he sounds believable. There's always two sides to every story and we've only read his. To have two engines fail (if he actually has) makes me think he's doing something wrong. Maybe filling up with gasoline. That'll do it every time. Not saying that it's impossible to lose two engines, just highly unlikely.

Before I bought my '08 F-450, I checked with the service department to see how many problems they had been having with the 6.4. So far the 6.4 has been very trouble-free. I believe these people because I have been doing business with them since '76.

 

[Builder]

I read his story and he sounds believable. There's always two sides to every story and we've only read his. To have two engines fail (if he actually has) makes me think he's doing something wrong. Maybe filling up with gasoline. That'll do it every time. Not saying that it's impossible to lose two engines, just highly unlikely.

Before I bought my '08 F-450, I checked with the service department to see how many problems they had been having with the 6.4. So far the 6.4 has been very trouble-free. I believe these people because I have been doing business with them since '76.

Come on, if he filled it up with gasoline, they never would have replaced his first engine. You're going to have to come up with a better conspiracy theory than that.

If you read the TDG forums, you see that Ford & Dodge are having more problems right now than GM. That greatly affected my decision. I ditched the brand loyalty and bought the least risky vehicle. I need my truck to start every morning for work or I lose money. I have no doubt at the time of my purchase, although imperfect, I made the best choice.

Not as as sexy as a Superduty, not as macho as a Cummins, but the one with the most known real world mileage reliablity and longest warranty. That to me is like money in the bank.

 

[JESSE1]

It still comes down to the fact you don't actually know what happened to his engines. It may be a perfectly legitimate story or it may be completely made up. I'm just saying don't take it as gospel until you know both sides of the incident.

 

[patrick_g]

I have been a Ford pickup owner since the big rocks cooled enough to not sear my knuckles when I walk. I have had a 3/4 ton corn binder (bought used as a DIY motor home) and a '97 one ton Cummins/Dodge and all the rest from '64 to 2008 are/were Ford. (Oh and a used '89 Dakota, a real beater)

I have had extraordinary service from all the Fords (except note #1 below) and so so with the Dakota and 7 on scale of 10 with the Dodge 3500 with Cumins.

One ford needed a new rear axle bearing about every 10,000 miles and a '67 1/2 ton had a rear wheel bearing go out setting the brake fluid on fire while I was descending a narrow mountain road in Mexico at night. This made for an extraordinary experience.

There is good and bad in every brand and if you sift out the BS you will find there are trends that hold true. One of these is that for several years the Dodge power train was not up to the Cumins output. If you got terrific service from yours then lucky you, it is still not a strong enough power train for many users.

The jury is out regarding the Ford Super Duty 6.4 and all the comments pro and con, prognostications, dire predictions, and other unsupported conjecture and BS don't amount to a hill of beans. Time will tell. All the tongue wagging gossip reduces the gossip mongers to the status of old women with nothing better to do.

I'm reminded of the tag line a bright guy uses on CBN, People would mind there own business if their business was worth minding.

Geez, if you keep picking it, it will never get well!

Pat

 

[Builder]

The fact that Ford is dumping the 6.4L after 2 short years appears to be more than "gossip" and if it holds true, it will amount to more than a "hill of beans" to those who bought them. IMO, their customer's trucks will suffer from severe depreciation compared to comparable models.

To this day, I still can't understand how GM could spec a duramax diesel in '01 that met pollution specs though 2010, while Ford would spec a 6L diesel later in '03 that falls short of '08 pollution specs.

Ford needs to get off the treadmill of rushing diesels to the market then ending the production run prematurely because the engine was troublesome, doesn't meet pollution specs or because they're in a cat fight with their engine supplier.

It's not serving their customer base in their best customer's best interest.