How Would You Fix This Bridge?

[GrandpaSmurf825]

Beggars can't be choosers.

You don't know the same beggars I know......

 

[airbiscuit]

So, sounds like OPs case to some degree, and may others on here, myself included. Remember the old saying, "Do it once, it'd a favor; do it twice, its your job".

Thats why I dont grade my road often (or as often as needed), or beyond my property, and generally dont try to make it "nice" but fix some of the large holes. One time a couple people stopped to thank me. 2nd time, nothing. At that point, its like its just my responsibility.... Nope, not doing that guys

That is so true. I live at the end of a 1/2 mile private road. I have good neighbors, but about 1/2 don't have a clue that it needs to be maintained. My neighbor plows the snow on the main drive (I help on occasion), and we take up a collection to pay him. It costs $25 - $35 per property owner for the whole winter no matter how many times he has to plow!

One neighbor who recently purchased a home complained about having to pay $25! She said YOU should have the township plow it. I explained we explored having the township take over the road, but 100% of the property owners have to agree, and not all did. I told her SHE could take a run at that. Failing that, $25 is a pretty reasonable fee for a winter's plowing. She now pays and doesn't complain.

I take a collection every couple of years for gravel. People are pretty good about that now. Every once in a while I procrastinate on grading the road so they realize it doesn't stay in good shape by magic.


BTW, a corollary to your old saying is

Can you do something with your equipment for me - It won't cost you anything.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Over the years I've had such good results calling my area Congessman(or woman). Most times I'm talking with their secretary who relays the message. I keep it short and to the point.
I'm a big advocate of a composition notebook and ink pens. That way before calling everything is in order. In OPs place "we have century old bridge washing out, road serves six homes (whatever # it is), 14 people need access, 911 needs access, deliveries, etc.
We need assistance, what can we do.
Note date, time, person you spoke with & their number.
Same with the county agent.
You have a record and it carries weight saying "April 6, I spoke with xxxxx who said xxxxx".
I believe there's a way around that $50,000 fee.

 

[paulsharvey]

Over the years I've had such good results calling my area Congessman(or woman). Most times I'm talking with their secretary who relays the message. I keep it short and to the point.
I'm a big advocate of a composition notebook and ink pens. That way before calling everything is in order. In OPs place "we have century old bridge washing out, road serves six homes (whatever # it is), 14 people need access, 911 needs access, deliveries, etc.
We need assistance, what can we do.
Note date, time, person you spoke with & their number.
Same with the county agent.
You have a record and it carries weight saying "April 6, I spoke with xxxxx who said xxxxx".
I believe there's a way around that $50,000 fee.

Maybe, but I think the realistic goal is to distribute the $50,000 over 14 residents, and a fixed pipe; and i take that as a win...

 

[paulsharvey]

As short term, emergency plan, Sunbelt and others rent traffic rated steel plates. No, they wont "bridge" the span, but they can be placed over a hole; if you have a way to lift.

Also, here, FDOT has kinda started assisting rural counties, cities, and even private roads after hurricanes. They deal with the FEMA payments, and haul debris, ect. I dont know that FEMA is going to deal with a group of private residents, and a specific person, who has not actual claim if "leadership". Not that I know a FEMA incident happened.

The work itself:

Yes, live creek, would require either a alternative route, or a pump around, and 8 ft wide x 1 ft, is a LOT of running water. You would need temp coffer dam, and/or sheet piles. Then a day or two to excavate and demo existing pipe; 1 day to place pipe, and start back fill. Another day to finish back fill and compaction/embankment. 2 days to install end treatments (head wall, or mitered ends or fabriform, soil cement bags, ect); then base and paving. I see it as 3 weeks of work; about 5 days of total closure.

If the road can't be closed, and they half to do half and half; figure more like 8 weeks...

Why that long? Just cause phase 1 is completed on Wednesday, doesnt mean phase 2 starts Thursday. So, I see mobilize and start diversion/pumping/erosion control/MOT 1st week; 2nd week demo and replace pipe; 3rd week restoration/stabilization/close out.

BTW, FDOT, state wide average, 60" pipe=$875/LF=$26,000 in just pipe and back fill; Embankment more than a few feet over pipe, base, asphalt, end treatments, slope stabilization, all increase that. Then, the DEP stuff, yeah, PE even for a simple job, figure atleast $300/hr, survey, $1500/day, as-builts, final submittal, ect; $50k seems pretty dang good.

 

[paulsharvey]

A ghetto back up plan; if everything just plain fails; Billboard walk way, as a pedestrian bridge? ATV on house side, car on exit side.


Edit: did some searching, couldn't find any. However, you can but pool barn steel trusses; "lean two style" upto 30 ft; 2 of them; 2x6 "purlions", and some 2x6 planks screwed to those; fast, kinda cheap, nearly instant, pedestrian bridge

 

[paulsharvey]

Not too helpful; but I ran it through ChatGPT, for grants/funding/ect, they imply you need basically a local authority to "sponsor" the project, and suggest reaching out to County Conservation District. So, if the local authorities can be on board, and willing to go after grants, that might be a possibility; but the local agency, could a public works, PennDOT, soil conservation district, water management authority, drainage district, DEP, whatever, needs to want to help.

That seems like a pain, but it makes sense, the state/feds shouldn't be dealing with just private individuals.

 

[paulsharvey]

One thing I noticed and thought about, after looking at the original pictures; are you 100% sure the Crossing is 100% private? I dont mean the road, the crossing specifically. The reason I point this out, or ask; its a 100 year old crossing, with a 25 year old guard rail. Its not wooden beam rail, its not "Texas Turn Down" end treatments; its actually guard rail. That implys someone spend money to install upgrades to this creek crossing at some point, probably in the mid to late 1980s to early-mid 1990s.

In Florida, there are some odd roads, county stuff, "un-defined ownership", ect, that have an FDOT structure number; either stamped or painted on a head wall, guard rail, ect. Down here, it starts with something like "76" FDOTs code for Putnam county, 78 "St Johns" or "71" Clay County, then another two numbers that represent the roadway ID (7639), and then 4 digits for the structure number; so; 76390113, say, might be in Putnam, on a county road, and a random box culvert, that FDOT owns, is responsible for, on an otherwise not FDOT roadway. Im sure PennDOT has different codes, record keeping, procedures.

 

[paulsharvey]

I did some very breif playing on PennDOT's OneMap gis, and selected on the layers all local bridge structures.

I couldn't really do much on my phone, as this website is set up for PC; but it appeared PennDOT has intrests in multiple (many) structures not on PennDOT roadways. No offense, but im not going to do too much digging for you, and not going to find and boot up a PC, but maybe you can do some searching.

Part of the issue for some people; if your not involved in ROW or public works, or road work; you would have no idea where/how to start the research, or that uncommon info is available online; but often, if you can start searching, and put in some leg work, there is info available to the public.

 

[paulsharvey]

Is there a chance that PennDOT, or an other local agency could have intrest is the creek crossing, on an otherwise private road?

Yes—there is a realistic chance, but it depends heavily on whether the crossing has any public benefit, historical designation, environmental importance, or indirect public function. For a private road serving 14 properties, PennDOT or other agencies usually won’t take ownership—but they may still have interest or involvement in certain cases.
Here’s how that typically breaks down in Pennsylvania:
When PennDOT might have interest
1. If the crossing connects to a public road network
Even if the road is private, PennDOT may get involved if:
The crossing is near or affects a state highway right-of-way
It impacts drainage, flood conveyance, or roadway stability of a nearby public road
The structure failure could create safety risks downstream or upstream
In these cases, PennDOT may not fund it directly, but they may:
Require permits
Provide design standards
Coordinate on drainage or hydraulics
2. If it functions as a de facto public access route
If the road:
Is used regularly by emergency services
Is the only access to multiple residences (14 is significant)
Has informal public use (hiking, recreation, etc.)
…a township or county may view it as having quasi-public importance, which can open the door to:
Township sponsorship of grants
Emergency access considerations
Pressure to formalize maintenance responsibility
3. Environmental / waterway jurisdiction (very important)
Creek crossings almost always trigger review from:
Pennsylvania DEP
U.S. Army Corps of Engineers (if federally regulated waters)
If the culvert or bridge is replaced or repaired, you may need:
Chapter 105 Water Obstruction & Encroachment Permit (DEP)
Possible floodway/floodplain review
Erosion & sediment control plan
These agencies won’t fund the project, but they must approve it, and their requirements often influence design (which can increase cost—but also strengthen eligibility for funding programs).
4. If the structure has regional importance
Occasionally, a private crossing becomes relevant if:
It’s part of a designated evacuation route
It supports access for utilities, oil/gas, timber, or agriculture
It is the only viable crossing in a larger area
In those cases, a county or township may advocate for funding support.
Who is more likely to care than PennDOT
1. Township / Municipality
This is the most important entity.
Even if the road is private:
The township may have interest if residents rely on it
They can act as the grant applicant or sponsor
They may help organize a road association or assessment structure
Many grant programs require municipal involvement anyway.
2. County Conservation District
If the crossing involves erosion, sediment, or stream stability:
They may get involved via the Dirt, Gravel, and Low Volume Road Program
They often advise on culvert sizing, stream impacts, and best practices
3. Emergency Services / Fire Marshal
If the crossing affects:
Ambulance or fire access
Response times or accessibility
They may advocate for improvements, which can indirectly support funding eligibility.
4. PA Fish & Boat Commission / Environmental groups
If the creek supports aquatic habitat:
They may require fish passage considerations
In some cases, they may support designs that improve stream continuity
Reality check (important)
PennDOT almost never takes over private roads or bridges
Direct PennDOT funding for a purely private crossing is unlikely
However, PennDOT involvement often comes indirectly through:
Permitting
Technical standards
Coordination with local governments
What actually works in situations like yours
For a private road serving multiple homes, the most common successful path is:
Form a road association or legal entity
Approach the township for sponsorship
Apply for:
Multimodal Transportation Fund
Local Share Account (LSA)
Infrastructure Bank loan (if needed)
Use a licensed engineer to design the crossing to PennDOT/DEP standards
Bottom line
PennDOT interest alone is unlikely unless there’s a direct impact on public infrastructure.
Township + conservation district + DEP involvement is much more likely.
Funding is usually accessible only if a public entity sponsors or partners with you.
If you want, describe the crossing (span, condition, whether it’s a culvert vs bridge, any failure issues), and I can tell you:
�⁠Which programs you’re most likely to qualify for
�⁠Whether the situation has a realistic path to public funding
And �⁠what angle would make a township more willing to help sponsor it

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

My last thought I promise!
From what I looked up railroad track is in 39 ft. sections. Used track isn't all that expensive. So you mark where center of creek is, then mark 20 feet out each side of that mark. You mark center of old track pieces, place them lengthways on center. Form up width of road by 40ft. So 20ft x 40ft x 6" is 15 yards concrete (about $2,000 delivered).
Poured concrete screeded and taper both ends down.
Area could be shaved down a bit, RR track also down a bit before forming. The DEP could care less, you're not disturbing creek.
Rebar, mesh, high psi concrete all the better.
I would think that would carry a lot of weight and last for years, not too bad a job and probably less than $10K total.

 

[paulsharvey]

It appears the crossing has guardrail installed in the mid 1980s to mid 1990s, and possibly a retaining wall structure on the creek embankment. These seem like odd features for an entirely private toadway

You’re right to notice that—guardrail and a retaining structure are not typical “casual” features for a purely private, lightly built rural driveway, especially if they look like they were installed to a recognizable standard in the 1980s–1990s. That observation can actually be a useful clue about the crossing’s history and how agencies might view it.
Here are the most likely explanations and what they could imply:
Why those features might exist
1. Former public or township road (most common explanation)
It’s fairly common in rural Pennsylvania for a road to have been:
Originally public (township or county maintained)
Later vacated, abandoned, or transferred to private ownership
If that happened, remnants often remain:
Guardrail installed under public standards
Engineered retaining structures or abutments
Bridge/culvert designs that follow PennDOT-era specs
If this is the case, the crossing may still be treated—informally or legally—as having legacy public infrastructure characteristics.
2. Built to public standards even though private
Sometimes developers or landowners built private roads to public-road standards, especially if:
Multiple lots were subdivided (like your 14 properties)
There was an expectation of future public adoption
Financing or engineering was done conservatively
Guardrail and retaining walls would then be:
Liability/safety-driven
Installed to meet known design practices of the time
Possibly designed by an engineer familiar with PennDOT specs
3. Required by permits (DEP / floodplain / stream crossing)
If the creek crossing required permits:
Retaining structures may have been required for bank stabilization
Guardrail may have been required due to:
Drop-off height
Road geometry near a waterway
Safety requirements tied to approved plans
4. Previously part of a larger access system
The crossing may have once served:
Agriculture operations
Timber extraction
Oil/gas or utility access
A larger tract before subdivision
In those cases, infrastructure is often built more robustly than a typical driveway.
Why this matters for agencies
Those features can influence how agencies view the crossing:
PennDOT / Township perspective
They may ask:
Was this ever a publicly maintained crossing?
Does it meet legacy design standards?
Does it function as a critical access route?
If there’s evidence of prior public use or construction, it can strengthen:
Township willingness to sponsor a project
Eligibility arguments for grants
Interest in preserving or upgrading the crossing
DEP / regulatory perspective
A more engineered crossing often:
Has existing permits (or should have)
Was designed with erosion/flood considerations
May already align partially with current permitting expectations
What you should try to verify
If you want to understand its status (and improve funding chances), these are key:
1. County records / deed history
Look for:
Road dedication language
Any mention of public right-of-way
Easements or recorded maintenance agreements
2. Aerial imagery history
Old aerials (1950s onward) can show:
Whether the road existed as a through route
Changes in alignment or usage
3. Township knowledge
Ask the township:
Was this ever maintained by them?
Do they have records of abandonment or vacation?
Do they recognize it as a “private road of public benefit”?
4. Physical clues on-site
Bridge abutments vs. simple culvert
Evidence of older standard guardrail (W-beam vs newer designs)
Width consistent with older township road standards
Alignment suggesting through traffic vs dead-end driveway
Why your observation is actually important
The presence of:
Guardrail
Retaining wall
Engineered-looking crossing
…can help argue that this is not just a private driveway crossing, but rather a structure with:
Historical infrastructure significance
Engineering considerations beyond typical private use
Potential public-benefit characteristics
That can be helpful when approaching:
Township supervisors
Grant programs (MTF, LSA)
Engineers evaluating the crossing
Conservation district programs
Bottom line
Those features strongly suggest one of the following:
It was once a public or semi-public road, or
It was built to public-road engineering standards, or
It was designed under permit requirements that treated it like a more formal crossing
None of those guarantee public funding—but they do strengthen the case that the crossing is “infrastructure-like” rather than purely private, which can matter when seeking assistance.
If you want, you can share:
Photos of the guardrail, abutments, and crossing
Approximate span/width
Whether it’s a bridge or culvert (or both)
…and I can help you assess:
�⁠Whether it likely meets PennDOT-era design standards
�⁠What type of structure it is
And �⁠how that affects repair/replacement options and funding eligibility

 

[Jstpssng]

For those that haven’t read the OP’s supplied info, an agency is requiring the creek be bypassed for any construction. This agency is the one driving up the cost somewhat and keeping it from just being dug out and replaced.

As I'm sure you are aware, the technical term is "dewatering".

Dewatering Methods in Construction - Project Infrastructure

1. Introduction Dewatering is the process of removing groundwater or surface water from a construction site to create a safe, dry, and stable working environment. Whenever excavation, foundation construction, or underground utilities are involved, managing water is often one of the most critical...

projectinfrastructure.com

We see this on many bridge projects here. Fortunately, forest roads are exempt so far.

I understand the OP's dilemma, at 80 YO he doesn't want to spend a lot of money on this. Yet setting a culvert on a stream this size is a case of doing it right once, or wrong several times. It might be worthwhile to leave it alone until it blows out; then people will HAVE to chip in to find a solution.
If there are fish in the stream I like t osee open bottom stream crossings for several reasons.

Here is the guide which we use for sizing culverts, and also has information helpful in setting them. https://www.maine.gov/dacf/lupc/publications/docs/Culvert_BrochureOct2020.pdf


The OP asked how we would fix it; and is looking for an inexpensive bandaid.
Here is what I would try first. I know that it works as we have done it, and have 100,000lb log trucks running across it.
Get some woven geotextile about 3 times the length of the culvert diameter. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Mutual-...en-Stabilization-Fabric-200-125-432/204268172

Spread it on the road, and put a foot of gravel on top. That will distribute the weight going across.

 

[paulsharvey]

I assume the DEP stuff, is based on this crossing being in what we would call a TIFF easement, basically a permitted crossing of DEP property (the stream). Just spanning over that doesnt mean it's not an encroachment of their property, and doesnt mean permitting isn't required; weather you touch the stream, or bridge over it.

State to state, this stuff varies wildly, and Penn may be Nothing like Florida.

 

[LouNY]

One thing I noticed and thought about, after looking at the original pictures; are you 100% sure the Crossing is 100% private? I dont mean the road, the crossing specifically. The reason I point this out, or ask; its a 100 year old crossing, with a 25 year old guard rail. Its not wooden beam rail, its not "Texas Turn Down" end treatments; its actually guard rail. That implys someone spend money to install upgrades to this creek crossing at some point, probably in the mid to late 1980s to early-mid 1990s.

In Florida, there are some odd roads, county stuff, "un-defined ownership", ect, that have an FDOT structure number; either stamped or painted on a head wall, guard rail, ect. Down here, it starts with something like "76" FDOTs code for Putnam county, 78 "St Johns" or "71" Clay County, then another two numbers that represent the roadway ID (7639), and then 4 digits for the structure number; so; 76390113, say, might be in Putnam, on a county road, and a random box culvert, that FDOT owns, is responsible for, on an otherwise not FDOT roadway. Im sure PennDOT has different codes, record keeping, procedures.

From post 19

We installed the guardrail ourselves. It was state surplus and we got it for cheap.

Yeah, that $50K estimate was a few years ago. Maybe double today.

Too many people wanting to make a extreme project out of a simple creek crossing.

 

[Jstpssng]

From post 19

Too many people wanting to make a extreme project out of a simple creek crossing.

Your idea of a simple stream crossing and mine must be different. There is a significant amount of water going through there at times.

 

[paulsharvey]

According to what im reading, private replacement of the crossing with a proper, new, crossing isnt going to happen. An 12-24" flow by 8ft wide, "average" flow, is a real creek, not some ditch. What ive been able to find, and based on experience, you need a public entity to "sponsor" the grant. And on top of that, $50k is cheap for the work involved.

So, based on what ive read here, and researched; there are really two or three options;
1) bandaid fixes, like already done, filling voids with concrete/grout/rubble; not really a repair, just buying a couple years at a time, until eventual total failure. Probably this work is in a gray area of the original DEP crossing permit, but they seem to be currently turning a blind eye to the work
2) someone with deep pockets funds the design, permitting and replacement. Thats probably closer to $150k in total cost, design, permit, contract letting, as-builts, and construction cost.
3) try to work the politics, and get the local county or township (this is a weird concept, we have nothing similar), to act as a "sponsor" to get grants, and/or enforce the repairs on all properties

 

[paulsharvey]

From post 19

Too many people wanting to make a extreme project out of a simple creek crossing.

Even at only 14 properties; bridging a creek, with a road, isnt exactly a DIY project. You're not just going to rent a 30 ton hoe, dig up the embankment, roll triple 36" pipes in, back fill, and call it a day; or not in my part of the world. Can it physically be done; yeah; legally, very unlikely. Why would someone take that responsibility, cost, and risk on themselves. Even if you wanted to take on the cost and risk; the odds of a DIY person installing coffer dams, pump around (probably 6 or 8" jet pump), getting the grades right, installing the pipe right, and getting the back fill/embankment right, arent good.

 

[paulsharvey]

As I'm sure you are aware, the technical term is "dewatering".

Dewatering Methods in Construction - Project Infrastructure

1. Introduction Dewatering is the process of removing groundwater or surface water from a construction site to create a safe, dry, and stable working environment. Whenever excavation, foundation construction, or underground utilities are involved, managing water is often one of the most critical...

projectinfrastructure.com

We see this on many bridge projects here. Fortunately, forest roads are exempt so far.

I understand the OP's dilemma, at 80 YO he doesn't want to spend a lot of money on this. Yet setting a culvert on a stream this size is a case of doing it right once, or wrong several times. It might be worthwhile to leave it alone until it blows out; then people will HAVE to chip in to find a solution.
If there are fish in the stream I like t osee open bottom stream crossings for several reasons.

Here is the guide which we use for sizing culverts, and also has information helpful in setting them. https://www.maine.gov/dacf/lupc/publications/docs/Culvert_BrochureOct2020.pdf


The OP asked how we would fix it; and is looking for an inexpensive bandaid.
Here is what I would try first. I know that it works as we have done it, and have 100,000lb log trucks running across it.
Get some woven geotextile about 3 times the length of the culvert diameter. https://www.homedepot.com/p/Mutual-...en-Stabilization-Fabric-200-125-432/204268172

Spread it on the road, and put a foot of gravel on top. That will distribute the weight going across.

Dewatering isnt really the right term; its a pump around or a diversion of a flowing water way. Dewatering is specifically standing or ground water.

Ive seen cases where a double barrel box was installed to maintain flow, and an ecosystem, (tidal creek), that without that specific issue, would have been probably 3x as fast, half the money, ect; but in the modern day, good or bad, no, you generally can't just dam up a large creek for the convenience of it, or ease of construction.

I did a quick search, and the penalties in Penn are about identical to FLa; $10,000/day/offense, until restored.

 

[paulsharvey]

Slightly off topic, but Penn rules are pretty similar to ours down here. Even down to "maintenance work" on an existing permitted crossing, vs needing a new permit. Yeah, repairs, cleaning, fixing wash outs, appear to be covered under the original permit. Replacement of the existing, new permit.