Saw Stop vs Others

[dadohead]

It all depends what you do. The table saw is still the centerpiece of my shop. I'm doing a cabinet job right now so dealing with sheet goods, dados, ripping stock for face frames etc. A moulding job next... matching a house full of 1903 pine profiles: heavy jointer, planer, saw, and moulder work.

The patternmaker in me (apprenticed at Cat in the '80's) uses the bandsaw and disc sander for smaller work. Disc sander straightens and flattens better than anything!

Straightening/flattening on a disc sander is something you were expected to master in the pattern shop pretty quickly! It was Wacko-world from the cabinet shop I grew-up in though!

Back in the 70's, we all had track saws... you made them!

https://imgur.com/RzDmvI1

 

[Rustyiron]

For your use, a track saw would keep about 100 s/f of your shop floor open.
I tried to give away a 12" Craftsman t/s to my son in law then a few others. I had no takers among these younger guys.
No blade safety worries
No off feed space necessary
Simple setup
Suck all of the sawdust directly into a vacuum.
Big savings on the purchase prices.
Running a dado blade is about the only thing that you couldn't do that I can think of right off.

 

[yanmars]

What am I missing? Perhaps a finger. The Sawstop type would be well worth it if flesh were contacted.
I do not have one but if I were getting back into the game I would seriously consider it.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

^^^^True statement^^^^

I despised Steven Gass and his attempt to strong arm the industry. However he's long out of the picture. So far NO one else since the offer from SawStop to allow others to use the technology has brought any other saws to the market with the technology. Yes Felder offers blade brake technology in their high end sliders but they are far above the price point of any of the saws discussed here. Bosch did in their job site saw but they didn't get to continue forward.

The SawStop line and especially the PCS and ICS series are excellent table saws. They put some thought into the design. The jacking screws make it an easy task to dial the miter slot to the blade and then to get the fence parallel to the miter slot.

 

[TMGT]

It all depends what you do. The table saw is still the centerpiece of my shop. I'm doing a cabinet job right now so dealing with sheet goods, dados, ripping stock for face frames etc. A moulding job next... matching a house full of 1903 pine profiles: heavy jointer, planer, saw, and moulder work.

The patternmaker in me (apprenticed at Cat in the '80's) uses the bandsaw and disc sander for smaller work. Disc sander straightens and flattens better than anything!

Straightening/flattening on a disc sander is something you were expected to master in the pattern shop pretty quickly! It was Wacko-world from the cabinet shop I grew-up in though!

Back in the 70's, we all had track saws... you made them!

https://imgur.com/RzDmvI1

Love my disc sander, I'm not a wood worker, but it gets used for metalworking, this is my 24"

and the 12" combo

Sent from my SM-S921U using TractorByNet mobile app

 

[N80]

So here is where I am in my thinking on this:

I want a table saw. At this point non-negotiables include an accurate fence, integral riving knife, functional blade guard, dado capable, at least 1.75 hp, moveable. The safety brake is desired but not required.

Whether it is a "cabinet" or "contractor" style is not important to me as long as it has wheels.

The Saw Stop I am looking at that meets this criteria is around $2500.

The Powermatic and Jet saws that meet this criteria are almost the same price with no safety brake.

Laguna makes a line of cabinet saws. Laguna has a good reputation in band saws. The saw in the middle of their line is something $2000. It has rails that extend to 36" like the Saw Stop but no 'platform' beyond the saw top. It is a cabinet saw in terms of motor mount but looks like a contractor saw with a skirt other than the motor mount. Obviously no safety brake.

I think if I can find a used saw of any decent brand with the criteria above at well below $2000 I might bite. Otherwise I'm still leaning toward the Saw Stop.

All of this could be instantly moot depending on my wife's mood. She has to put up with a lot of my nonsense.

 

[WinterDeere]

Agreed with all of your points, except Laguna. Laguna definitely has the sexiest advertising on band saws, and I also once assumed they were the best out there, for hobbiest or non-industrial modern bandsaws. But having talked to many actual owners of Laguna saws, and then reading up on reviews from non-fanboys who've actually owned more than one bandsaw, all I hear is that they're overpriced garbage.

Find me one person who's actually owned a real bandsaw, who will say anything positive about their Laguna. You'll have trouble, at that. You'd be better off with a JWBS-18 or JWBS-20 than a Laguna at double the price, as they were the last time I was shopping new bandsaws.

I'd also go with the Saw Stop over Jet or Laguna, if I were in your shoes. I've owned lots of vintage Powermatic equipment, in fact I still have one little 1970's PM-50 jointer, but know very little about their current lineup.

I've always favored the vintage equipment, and would be shopping pre-Rockwell Unisaws or PM65/PM66, if I were in your shoes. But if wanting to just buy something new and get right down to using it, I can't see any good argument against the Saw Stop.

 

[rumwrks]

I would second WinderDeere's comments re-Laguna, they also have a terrible support track record historically.

I ended up with a euro style slider because that largely removes a lot of the kickback issues plus I do do a fair bit of sheet goods work. Basically all of the injuries (including blade contact) are due to kickback so the riving knife and above blade guards get you like 80% of the way there (with a BIG exception for non-through cuts like dados..). I can clamp to the sliding table for like 95% of cuts hands free which and the other 5% I probably shouldn't be making anyway (I have jigged some of those up.. a sled or similar would be on my very short list of "I just bought a tablesaw" projects)... It's also a LOT more expensive and takes up a LOT more space and doesn't meet any of your mobility requirements (it's really very very stationary). I also have a dewalt jobsite saw but that's not in the same class as any of the above.

Just IMHO A cabinet type saw is going to outdo an open based contractor saw in stability, rigidity, dust collection, etc.. hands down. Look at how the trunnions are attached and the cast vs stamped wings, default dust collection, etc.. They're just a better design. The cabinet saw also has a smaller overall footprint. If you upgrade to comparable cast iron wings, and add the dust port to the jobsite your over $2500 which ok it's not the $3k of the cabinet but it's heading that way . Yes they do cost more but I'd take a used sawstop cabinet saw in decent shape over a new jobsite or contractor saw any day of the week. If you really just need to roll it around a bit put it on a mobile base, you can get a LOT nicer mobile base for a cabinet saw than the built in wheel system on the contractor (third party not sawstop, you can get nicer ones than they have for less.. esp for a cabinet saw.. I might go with theirs for the contractor just because it's harder to properly support those). If you're needing to haul it between sites.. that's a different problem altogether (and the "contractor" types are IMHO heavy enough that that won't be easy to do anyway).

I have heard very few complaints about sawstop build quality within a given saw size space. They're frequently compared to the older Delta or Powermatic and similar saws back when they were properly made. Good heavy trunnions, quality castings, etc.. The jobsite seems less well loved than the cabinet, and the Compact is actively disliked (granted I'm not sure there IS a really loved compact saw on the market.. it's a difficult problem to build to).

I would strongly consider the wider fence setup as well, at least the 36" which doesn't seem like a lot more than the 30 but it makes a difference if you ever need to cut cabinets or similar (the 52" would imho be better.. but .. space is what space is and cost is what cost is). I have mixed opinions on the built in router table theory.. yes it saves space but being able to have two machines pre-setup and not having to re-adjust fence settings, etc.. in the middle of a project can also save a TON of time. I have a combo joiner/planer and my TS has a 3HP shaper built in and while it's nice to have all that.. it's not nearly the functionality of separates. I built my router table so I could roll it just baaaarely under the tablesaw wing (with the fence off) which was a decent compromise.

 

[N80]

I can't speak to the Laguna bandsaws. YouTube noise is positive but the internet has not made assessing and buying stuff much easier than it used to be because there is so much crap out there and many if not most YouTube reviewers are shills for the manufacturers in one way or another.

@rumwrks I hear you in regard to the cabinet saw. I'm certainly in no position to disagree since my table saw experience is nearly zero. But, in this case budget constraints are as real as space constraints. I usually buy used whenever I can but I'm just not turning up much in regard to Saw Stop saws in my region.

I also can't speak to Powermatic table saws. I do have the basic Powermatic 15" band saw. This particular unit is probably the best band saw in the world because it was free. It was like new when it was given to me. In reality there isn't anything that stands out in regard to quality or lack of it. It frustrated me at first because I didn't know what I was doing. The user manual set up guide was not much help. In my opinion it is actually wrong in some aspects. After watching some set up videos and getting new high quality blades the unit was transformed from a rarely used tool to something I use all the time. With a new sharp blade and proper setup it does a lot of things very well from ripping (with a DIY fence extender) to cross cuts (DIY sled) and even resawing nearly veneer thin strips.

 

[WinterDeere]

I can't speak to the Laguna bandsaws. YouTube noise is positive but the internet has not made assessing and buying stuff much easier than it used to be because there is so much crap out there and many if not most YouTube reviewers are shills for the manufacturers in one way or another.

Yeah, it's tough to weed through those suffering from a combination of cognitive dissonance reduction and the "Halo Effect" of high cost, from those who are just excited to finally own their first bandsaw. People will overwhelmingly only offer positive reviews, if they have paid a premium for the same product that could be had for less. Both suggest that this is due to a natural expectation of high quality, causing buyers to focus on the positive aspects of a purchase already made, while overlooking known flaws. Psych 101.

This is where some sharp-witted poster is going to point out that I own a John Deere R-series. I don't think Laguna is any worse than Jet or Powermatic, I just don't think they deserve their premium price. Heck, you can buy and restore the stoutest commercial Crescent, Tannewitz, or Oliver for half the cost of those Laguna's.

@rumwrks I hear you in regard to the cabinet saw. I'm certainly in no position to disagree since my table saw experience is nearly zero. But, in this case budget constraints are as real as space constraints. I usually buy used whenever I can but I'm just not turning up much in regard to Saw Stop saws in my region.

I wouldn't buy a new cabinet saw, either. If you're into used, keep an eye out for a classic Unisaw or Powermatic, and then put it on a mobile base to wheel it around!

I don't know much about contractor's saws, but a lot of guys seem to love their old classic Craftsman contractor's saws. There's certainly no shortage of support for those antiques. I remember an older neighbor who I used to do a lot of projects with had and owned one of those things for decades, and used it in his general contracting / carpentry / handy-man business.

 

[rumwrks]

. It frustrated me at first because I didn't know what I was doing. The user manual set up guide was not much help. In my opinion it is actually wrong in some aspects. After watching some set up videos and getting new high quality blades the unit was transformed from a rarely used tool to something I use all the time.

If you lookup info by Alex Snodgrass you won't go to far wrong, I disagree with him in small parts (from a practical perspective) but overall he knows a lot more about bandsaws than I or indeed most of us ever will.

Powermatic is not IMHO what it was once upon a time. Don't get me wrong they still make some nice stuff.. and I have a not-incredibly-old (2009 before things got overly expensive) powermatic lathe which has been great but they are commanding a price premium that I think is out of line with their current quality standards.

I also don't think you'll find a better built table saw in the class/price range than the sawstop for what that's worth.

I might be feeling a bit twice shy on Laguna but in the mid/late 00's they really dropped a lot of people in the lurch on support and shipped a bunch of just junk equipment. They had at one point a pretty good name in bandsaws but burned a lot of goodwill in the timeline. Some of their stuff has improved since then.. some of it hasn't.. and figuring out which kit is good vs which is not isn't always obvious. I just don't personally trust them anymore.

I have some equipment by jet (drum sander, mortiser) and Grizzly (spindle/disk sander, bandsaw) and they're all fine. Not top top of the line but good tools for what I paid for them. You do have to pick and choose a bit as they don't have what I'd consider consistent quality across all the product lines. Historically the Grizzly 1023 and 696 series are generally liked well enough although you're heading into sawstop price territory and I can't claim they're better built than the SS either. When they sold at a higher discount the decision point might be different. I don't think I'd be looking at either of their contractor saws personally.

 

[dadohead]

I wouldn't buy a new cabinet saw, either. If you're into used, keep an eye out for a classic Unisaw or Powermatic, and then put it on a mobile base to wheel it around!

I agree. Unfortunately, the OP has all but discounted many old, affordable saws with the riving knife and snazzy blade guard requirement. Deep down, he really wants new.

I watched as my friend Jim retired and started buying wood equipment. He is picking up all his knowledge from internet forums and YouTube. He bought a used, fairly new PM contractor saw "because of its safety guards and riving knife". He also is currently putting a $1k spiral head into his $600 plastic planer because the forums say "straight knives suck". Wow. His saw is so safe it's dangerous... he even has had a kickback scare. Looking at it, he'll have more. He seems very confident in his knowledge though. Too bad apprenticeships are all but gone.

 

[WinterDeere]

I can understand the desire to buy new, and just get down to using it, rather than spending the summer restoring an old machine, before it’s ready to use. One of my bigger mistakes when I first got into sailboat racing, was buying a beautiful wood antique racing boat… and then spending three solid years restoring the thing, instead of sailing.

I did the same with antique woodworking machinery, to some degree. My last table saw was cast in 1903, and it was an absolute beast, but there was lost time in converting Babbitt bearings and sourcing a single-phase motor and new flat-belt pulley to go with it.

There are many nice Powermatics and Unisaws from the 1960’s and 70’s, that might be nearly ready to use from day 1, much less of a project. I suspect there might be aftermarket riving knife add-ons for both, and there’s always universal overhead guards, if you want a blade guard. Personally, I’d not want a blade guard in my way, but I do understand the desire for a riving knife, given how un-straight so much of today’s lumber tends to be.

But getting back to the OP’s question, if buying new, I’d probably just go SawStop. And I wouldn’t be bothering to find a used version of any machine in production today. If I’m dealing with the hassle of buying used, it’s because I want something better than any of the Chinesium made today.

 

[shooterdon]

I have a Delta 3 HP saw I bought new about 40 years ago. My advice...

Buy what you want...cry once and get over it. A good saw will last a hobby woodworker a lifetime.

If money is tight, look at an older quality saw until you can justify upgrading. You may find there is no reason to get something better and have saved $1500. If you upgrade, you will get all your money back out of it and have had the pleasure of using a decent saw in the meantime.

My saw is 220V. Do not let that be a deal killer. It is neither expensive nor difficult to run a 220 line.

 

[N80]

If you lookup info by Alex Snodgrass you won't go to far wrong, I disagree with him in small parts (from a practical perspective) but overall he knows a lot more about bandsaws than I or indeed most of us ever will.

That's the method I used. It works. But the real key is a sharp high quality blade.

 

[N80]

I agree. Unfortunately, the OP has all but discounted many old, affordable saws with the riving knife and snazzy blade guard requirement. Deep down, he really wants new.

Don't quit your day job to be a psychoanalyst.

If you looked at my shop, my vehicles, tractor implements, hunting 'stuff', a lot of what is in my home, etc, mostly used. I have no problem buying used and usually do with large purchases. I have no problem fixing things up. My requirements have nothing to do with me wanting something just because it is new either. My requirements are there to do what I want to do with the saw and do it safely for a beginner. Nor do I need a snazzy blade guard....just a blade guard that works.

 

[rumwrks]

I mean .. there are at least Olivers from all the way back to the 30's/40's that have riving knives... and fancy blade guards... They weigh as much as most cars but they had them - from 1936 Oliver Machinery Co. - Publication Reprints - No. 260 - Double Arbor Universal Saw Bench | VintageMachinery.org
This isn't really "new" technology, it just took a long time for most of the industry to catch up. (additional disclaimer these also loose on the affordable side.. but it's interesting history).

More practically.. it's really hard to know when a piece of wood is going to be a problem when ripping, sometimes it's obvious but sometimes it ain't. A perfectly straight and clear looking piece can have a lot of tension and push itself sideways between the fence and the blade or clamp down on the blade. Are there ways to mostly.. deal with that for an experienced operator .. yes to some degree (i.e. cranking the blade higher is actually safer in this context.. until it's not.. a riving knife lets you more safely set the blade to just above the workpiece).. but there are also a bunch of fellows who thought they knew who are missing a few fingers. You only have to get it wrong once. Personally I think a riving knife is kind of minimal safety equipment at this point in history, and wouldn't recommend a beginning woodworker get a machine without one (and as an .. I guess intermediate woodworker.. I feel more comfortable with one.. but still operate with the precautions I would if it wasn't there). You can get close on older equipment with things like the Shark Guard but it's hard to beat the functionality of a riving knife that sits right behind the blade for catching a lot of this class of problem before it's a big problem.

One of my earlier woodworking memories is from HS woodshop in the mid 80's when I heard the massive old iron tablesaw's motor load up followed by a horrendous crash. It had grabbed a 2x4 a fellow was ripping and shot it backwards leaving it stuck in the concrete block wall. It was sheer luck no one was actually hurt. I've also had a little lightweight jobsaw kick back and it actually pushed the saw out and away from me and flipped it on it's side (yes I had a good hold on things, but seeing that saw kick out and fall over with the blade pointing at you gives you pause...). I started hanging a couple sandbags under it to help stabilize the thing after that. Neither of those ofc had anything resembling a riving knife.

I try to do a lot of ripping on the bandsaw but there are times when you really just want a fresh off of the saw clean cut that the bandsaw won't deliver. You can also get into a jackpot on the bandsaw of course.. but ripping flat & straight is pretty straightforward as long as you keep your hand out of the blade

That's the method I used. It works. But the real key is a sharp high quality blade.

Yeah, for sure. One thing it took me a while to really come to terms with in a functional sense (one of those things you "know" but it's harder to "feel" if that makes sense) is that if it seems like you're having to work a little harder than it seems like you ought to.. it's time to sharpen your tools/replace the blade. This is true of bandsaws, chisels, handsaws, chainsaws, router bits, you have it. I grew up on a ranch where we bull moosed everything and .. you can get it done.. but it's not nearly as functional or enjoyable.

I've also had a few bandsaw blades from reputable good suppliers that for whatever reason just never cut right. In one case it was a bad weld you could feel but not really see, in some other cases I never really did entirely figure it out.. set was off or a little twist maybe.. but they never cut right and straight even out of the box.

 

[N80]

I did the same with antique woodworking machinery, to some degree. My last table saw was cast in 1903, and it was an absolute beast, but there was lost time in converting Babbitt bearings and sourcing a single-phase motor and new flat-belt pulley to go with it.

My drill press is circa 1920. The only thing I've had to do was rewire the cord to the motor and put a new switch on it. Belts, pulleys and other spinning parts all out in the open. I'd be nervous with it if I had long hair.

My lathe is probably 50 years old as well as my router. Both Craftsman. The lathe is actually very nice and quite large. The router is under powered but has some nice features like on/off button on the handle.

Many of my measuring and marking tools are 50-75 years old.

I'm not opposed to old or used tools.

 

[N80]

The primary thing I have done with my drill press, lathe and table saw is making pipes. Completely hand made, even the stems. Very different from furniture making.

 

[WinterDeere]

Watch the bearings on any old DP used for woodworking, as spindle speeds are high, and chances of wallowing a shaft are very high. Whenever I rehab an old DP, I just replace the bearings, as a matter of course.

My DP’s aren’t that old, all 1940’s vintage. But my dual 14” table saw was 1903, and 16” jointer was 1912. I think my 32” bandsaw is also 1912. Planer and radial saw are both late 1940’s, as well.

Other than some big loggers saws, the oldest stuff I have is my great-grandfather’s machinist chest full of micrometers, calipers, squares and rules. That’s all marked 1890’s, mostly Browne and Sharpe or Athol Machinery, who I think were once associated with Starrett in some way.