equipment emissions (EPA) ended

[Paystar]

The two newest tractors on our farm have neither DPF nor DEF: 2021 MF 4707 and 2023 TYM 2515R.

Both are among the finest, best tractors I've ever operated.

I really like those Massey 4707's. But Canadian prices kept me from ever buying one.

 

[Paystar]

I don’t understand this.
So the gubmit says they are relaxing standards and the manufacturers are saying they will just keep building them with all the 2027 standards?

I’m thinking they don’t want to get rid of EGR/DEF/DPF because they make a lot of profit off of them.

They don't want to abandon it because they know when Trump is gone they are going to have to put it all back.

 

[Hay Dude]

They don't want to abandon it because they know when Trump is gone they are going to have to put it all back.

What if a Trump-like candidate wins?

 

[Hay Dude]

A contractor I know has an International with an ISX Cummins in it. They thought they could just cut all the wires off and remove the DPF. You should see the world of hurt that caused them, LOL

Well that was about as stupid as it gets. Anyone knows you deprogram DEF, not cut the wires and remove it , OMG….

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

There seems to ber a big difference in the way we look at knowledge. Not just you and I, maybe it's a generational thing. I believe a person can learn this new technology. Yes, learn all of it.
And yes, I agree that learning it would be complicated....but not that it's impossible.

There are a couple of questions that just naturally come up from our discussion:

If these new tractors really are too overwhelmingly complicated for people to understand, then how do you think they get designed and tested and built in the first place?

And....If tractors really have reached the point of being too complex to be repaired because nobody can possibly know enough to fix them, then what's the answer for breakdowns?
What should the future tractor operator do?
Just work it until it quits? What's the alternative?

rScotty

i NEVER said they couldn't be repaired. Nice deflection though. I said that no one can or will know everything because no tech will only work on one model. Gloss over what I said if you want. Ignore the facts that I stated. I'm not sure why I'm bothering because you ignore most of what I said or say.

There have been several comments that make it clear some understand exactly what I'm saying, and Hay Dude is saying. What is very clear is you haven't been around any of the new equipment to see and observe the levels of sophistication and complexity they have. So what's your background in the repair side? I've been fortunate enough to have experience on a lot of different levels in the equipment/engine fields. I have never claimed to be an expert or to know everything. I can say absolutely that a modern emission laden electronic controlled engine can humble you faster than any old school mechanical everything engine ever could.

 

[WinterDeere]

You're right. It took me three years of working evenings/nights and weekends to build a vehicle.

Before kids and single: 1 year
Before kids and married: 2-3 years
After kids: dunno

Built many engines, a few rear ends, more body work than I ever enjoyed... but always just a means to an end. I didn't like working on cars nearly as much as I liked owning fast cars on a budget.

Never dug into any automatic transmission, beyond a manual valve body conversion kit. I always heard there was witchcraft and wizardry inside!

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

No less possible than the guy who figured out the mechanical advance on an old distributor solving a hydraulics problem.

Plymouth introduced the automatic spark advance in 1931. The Model A and most likely many other vehicles use a spark advance handle on the column to advance the timing before that. Unless that guy was Harry Ferguson he probably didn't solve any hydraulic issues.

 

[WinterDeere]

Plymouth introduced the automatic spark advance in 1931. The Model A and most likely many other vehicles use a spark advance handle on the column to advance the timing before that. Unless that guy was Harry Ferguson he probably didn't solve any hydraulic issues.

I spent the early part of my career working in automation, replacing old mechanically-triggered automated assembly and test systems with then-modern computer-controlled automation equipment. The complexity of the older mechanical equipment always amazed me, those guys must have been effing geniouses to get that stuff to work, with no computer controls. Our modern equipment was infinitely more capable, but also many times simpler, since we could just tell the computer what we wanted all of the various actuators and motors to do.

So whenever I hear someone griping about electronics making something too complex, I have to laugh, remembering that job. Doing the same things without electronics can often be even more complicated!

 

[rScotty]

SNIP

What is very clear is you haven't been around any of the new equipment to see and observe the levels of sophistication and complexity they have. So what's your background in the repair side?

Background? Self-taught unschooled hillbilly mechanic. No schooling. Left home as a teen & after a few years ended up with a mechanical repair/welding/machine shop. Finished HS & JC at night school. Sold the shop to the employees & went on to univ. & grad school in engineering.
Worked a couple of decades for industry designing hydraulic/mechanical machinery on commission as needed. Then switched to computer control systems, disk drives, & magnetic devices. Lots of patents. Did consulting engineering for a few years, then local politics, & now retired.

 

[Hay Dude]

Background? Self-taught unschooled hillbilly mechanic. No schooling. Left home as a teen & after a few years ended up with a mechanical repair/welding/machine shop. Finished HS & JC at night school. Sold the shop to the employees & went on to univ. & grad school in engineering.
Worked a couple of decades for industry designing hydraulic/mechanical machinery on commission as needed. Then switched to computer control systems, disk drives, & magnetic devices. Lots of patents. Did consulting engineering for a few years, then local politics, & now retired.

That’s a pretty full and accomplished career. GFY.
I was thinking about what retirement would look like a few days ago. I’d like to work another 15 years. In the last 5, I’d like to train someone to take over my business, if anyone is dumb enough to do so.
Maybe sell him all my remaining equipment and customers.
Could be my son, he is still thinking it over.

 

[alexpops]

I think the biggest obstacle to repairs today wind up being the OEM/EPA lockouts/firewalls in the programming. Even the dealers don't get full access to the software, since it expands the liability chain in the event of EPA violations, thus the stupid tree chart diagnostic procedures (and the "we don't know what's wrong, everything came back fine from the diagnostic procedures"). If full access was available, a good mechanic (technician in today's world) could zero in on the system he suspects based on experience and quickly check the outputs to see if he's right by ignoring the limp command/bypassing the system temporarily -- Actual time spent 10 minutes ... book time for diagnostics using the tree chart 1.25 hours ... WIN/Where's the next car? This one needed the connector replaced to NOx sensor #2 due to corrosion. (the tree chart would have replaced the sensor before suspecting the wiring) However, that level of access would allow for defeating all the EPA mandated, performance robbing, inefficient systems permanently & it would be like the 70's again when my most valuable tools in the box were a bag of golf tees and a roll of windshield washer tube with which I could eliminate all the vacuum leaks caused by the EPA stuff when doing a tune-up. Can today's stuff be repaired/hot rodded/upgraded? Absolutely, but we'd need to have access to all parts of the ECU program since that is where the control happens vs vacuum fittings off the carb/intake in the past (and a fair bit of knowledge regarding things like timing, A/F ratios, EG temps & backpressure). Not to mention, there is a dealer/OEM incentive to hide the programming with tractors like mine (how many XR4155's would have been sold vs XR4140's?) All models between 40 and 55HP are identical mechanically & only differ in the programming for the performance boost. Save money by buying the 4140 go to a shop (or buy & learn a programmer) to upgrade to 4155 & use the saved money to buy more implements. Hell, with appropriate upgrades to cooling/fueling/transmission take the power up to 70HP with little impact on engine longevity as long as you know what you're doing. (frame may suffer from additional torque/stress of whatever you need the extra power for) Isn't really that different from the days of hot rodding, other than the tools needed in the 50's/60's/70's are only a subset of the tools needed today & the cost of making a mistake is substantially higher. (I could blow an engine in '76 and pick up a boneyard replacement that fit under the hood & rebuild & install for under $500) I quit working on cars for a living in the late 70's since I already was making more for the SnapOn & Mac drivers than me & every 3 years I needed a new black box analyzer for the cars I worked on (naturally the Chrysler/Ford/GM analyzers weren't compatible, so I needed one for each to diagnose ignition issues once everyone went to solid state & stopped using points/condensers where all that was needed was a set of feeler gauges, multimeter/Dwell meter & timing light -- VW's didn't even need that ... just a 12v test light to set points and timing.)

 

[WinterDeere]

GFY.

The thumbs up was critical, in me figuring out this meant "Good For You"!

My mind originally went to "Go F Yourself", which might actually be a natural response to anyone who can retire before me.

 

[ultrarunner]

There seems to ber a big difference in the way we look at knowledge. Not just you and I, maybe it's a generational thing. I believe a person can learn this new technology. Yes, learn all of it.
And yes, I agree that learning it would be complicated....but not that it's impossible.

There are a couple of questions that just naturally come up from our discussion:

If these new tractors really are too overwhelmingly complicated for people to understand, then how do you think they get designed and tested and built in the first place?

And....If tractors really have reached the point of being too complex to be repaired because nobody can possibly know enough to fix them, then what's the answer for breakdowns?
What should the future tractor operator do?
Just work it until it quits? What's the alternative?

rScotty

Maybe the answer is expensive diagnostic tools at the ready and a subscription?

 

[rScotty]

That’s a pretty full and accomplished career. GFY.
I was thinking about what retirement would look like a few days ago. I’d like to work another 15 years. In the last 5, I’d like to train someone to take over my business, if anyone is dumb enough to do so.
Maybe sell him all my remaining equipment and customers.
Could be my son, he is still thinking it over.

Thanks. I enjoyed the challenges and retired knowing I did OK, but also that I could have done better....in about equal amounts. One thing is for sure, having the right partner sure helps.

I'd think that seeing a son - or daughter - follow in a family business would be a wonderful thing. Hopefully your son will decide to do that while you are still involved. That way the two of you could share the good times and have two people to work on the problems.

 

[rScotty]

Maybe the answer is expensive diagnostic tools at the ready and a subscription?

Could be. That's as good a guess as any I've heard.

 

[rScotty]

The thumbs up was critical, in me figuring out this meant "Good For You"!

My mind originally went to "Go F Yourself", which might actually be a natural response to anyone who can retire before me.

Given the choice, I'd prefer to be younger and wishful than older and retired.

 

[Hay Dude]

Thanks. I enjoyed the challenges and retired knowing I did OK, but also that I could have done better....in about equal amounts. One thing is for sure, having the right partner sure helps.

I'd think that seeing a son - or daughter - follow in a family business would be a wonderful thing. Hopefully your son will decide to do that while you are still involved. That way the two of you could share the good times and have two people to work on the problems.

We already are.
Whether he will move from the role of employee to part owner is the big question.

 

[rontaki]

We already are.
Whether he will move from the role of employee to part owner is the big question.

Making hay while your son shines? (sorry)

 

[WinterDeere]

We already are.
Whether he will move from the role of employee to part owner is the big question.

I'm not sure how many Amish or Mennonite you have in your area, but I'm literally surrounded by them, here. One thing I've always found interesting, even impressive, is the way parents hand over their businesses to their children at surprisingly young ages.

I remember the first time I visited the show room of a big local furniture business, some young teen girl came up to ask if we needed anything, and I originally assumed she was just the daughter of whoever ran the showroom. Nope... she was the boss of the store. She couldn't have even been much more than 15 or 17 years old, I suspect.

Then I got passed off to the customs shop, since we were looking to have a bunch of custom furniture built, and it was her 20 year old brother running the entire customs shop. Another brother was running the production furniture side of the business.

I did eventually meet the father, probably in his 50's at that point. He worked for his sons, as a delivery boy. He explained that he used to run the whole business, but put his kids in charge when he felt they were old enough, and now he can relax while working for them.

Kind of the opposite of what I normally experience, with the kids only taking the reigns after the parents are totally spent.

 

[Hay Dude]

I'm not sure how many Amish or Mennonite you have in your area, but I'm literally surrounded by them, here. One thing I've always found interesting, even impressive, is the way parents hand over their businesses to their children at surprisingly young ages.

I remember the first time I visited the show room of a big local furniture business, some young teen girl came up to ask if we needed anything, and I originally assumed she was just the daughter of whoever ran the showroom. Nope... she was the boss of the store. She couldn't have even been much more than 15 or 17 years old, I suspect.

Then I got passed off to the customs shop, since we were looking to have a bunch of custom furniture built, and it was her 20 year old brother running the entire customs shop. Another brother was running the production furniture side of the business.

Have to remember the Amish Yutes only go to school till about the 8th grade, so they are out and working 5-10 years younger than our Yutes.

I did eventually meet the father, probably in his 50's at that point. He worked for his sons, as a delivery boy. He explained that he used to run the whole business, but put his kids in charge when he felt they were old enough, and now he can relax while working for them.

Kind of the opposite of what I normally experience, with the kids only taking the reigns after the parents are totally spent.

I use Amish as subs all the time. Not uncommon for dad to request to bring a younger one along. I always say no as I won’t have any part of being responsible for a youngster being hurt.
Once they are 18-ish I’m ok with it.