Homes… Your Thoughts… Old or New?

[WinterDeere]

The last project benefits from the advances in technology and efficiency using a 95% boiler for radiant heat and a 24 SEER heat pump for AC and spring and fall heat.

It has always appeared to me that mechanical components such as boilers and heat pumps, used to be designed from a standpoint of longevity over performance, with the mindset that these componets should last lifetimes. But they never did, and even if they could, technology would pass them by. Who wants to keep an old 65% efficiency boiler for 30 years past the introduction of 90% or even 95% efficient boilers?

So, we need to consider what "better" means, when people start talking about old vs. new being "better".

The same has happened with kitchen appliances. Our mothers picked our their avacado green or mustard yellow oven/range set and dishwashers, with the mindset that they'd keep them forever. But who wanted an avocado green oven and range past 1978?

It turns out that appliances which are built as cheaply as possible, with maximized efficiency and an expected lifespan of maybe 20 years is the sweet spot. After that, they've gone out of style, anyway.

Insulation is R50 in the ceiling and R28 in the walls. Modern doors and windows that seal up tight. An Energy Recovery ventilation system that maintains a positive pressure when burning a fire, or running appliances that vent to the outside. All recessed LED lighting, etc.
None of which is going to be native to an old house.

Insulation is nice, most of my house has none. But I did some comparisons ca.2012 on a bunch of my 1770's windows against Andersen's best mid-1990's products, then only 15-20 years old, and I found that the 250 year old windows actually outperformed the newer ones by a healthy margin, when fitted with a good storm window. This was done with fairly extensive thermal imaging and thermocouple measurements, both inside and out.

The older windows may draft just slightly more, but when comparing the 4" air gap formed between an old traditional double hung and an exterior storm, to the 5mm air or argon gap of any modern double-glazed window, the old phrase "there's replacement for displacement" comes to mind. You just can't beat a 4" air gap with 0.2", no matter what else you wrap around it.

That’s not to say that you can’t cut corners in construction, either old or new, but if you want to do things right, new is the clear winner if you want to capitalize on what’s available.

? Not sure what this means. Do you mean housing inventory? Lots of old houses, depending on how you define "old", in some of our surrounding historic villages and farm land.

 

[Captain Dirty]

(Inadvertantly) shooting oneself in the foot.

The same has happened with kitchen appliances. Our mothers picked our their avacado green or mustard yellow oven/range set and dishwashers, with the mindset that they'd keep them forever. But who wanted an avocado green oven and range past 1978?

It turns out that appliances which are built as cheaply as possible, with maximized efficiency and an expected lifespan of maybe 20 years is the sweet spot. After that, they've gone out of style, anyway.

Owing to low ceiling height in our old farmhouse (standard cabinets would have left less than 1' between cabinet bottom and counter top) we opted for custom cabinets when we renovated the kitchen in '79. We also bought a 40" Almond-colored GE range with double ovens. We love the stove, but GE has changed the burners (a diligent search can find replacement burners but I have had to remanufacture the porcelain receptacles), and about 25 years ago GE and other makers ceased to offer 40" ranges. I did find a 1 meter (39.37") Italian range for a little less than $$$$10K. When I asked my carpenter neighbor what it would cost for a new counter with 36" or 48" opening for a range, he said I should budget about $10K.

 

[Hughman]

(Inadvertantly) shooting oneself in the foot.



Owing to low ceiling height in our old farmhouse (standard cabinets would have left less than 1' between cabinet bottom and counter top) we opted for custom cabinets when we renovated the kitchen in '79. We also bought a 40" Almond-colored GE range with double ovens. We love the stove, but GE has changed the burners (a diligent search can find replacement burners but I have had to remanufacture the porcelain receptacles), and about 25 years ago GE and other makers ceased to offer 40" ranges. I did find a 1 meter (39.37") Italian range for a little less than $$$$10K. When I asked my carpenter neighbor what it would cost for a new counter with 36" or 48" opening for a range, he said I should budget about $10K.

We are in the same boat. We have a 40" dual fuel range that is starting to flake out. Virtually impossible to find a replacement in that size. The control panel is no longer available so I will either have to find someone to do a custom refirb of the electronics or start thinking about a kitchen remodel.

 

[ultrarunner]

Building inspectors range from good to pretty inept. The local building inspector should probably work for Boeing who apparently needs some quality inspections. But how is even the laziest inspector worse than no inspections at all? At least most people design the build with inspections in mind and build on a concrete foundation and span the floor joists adequately. It used to be relatively common to skip the foundation and prop it up on stumps and span 2x6 floor joists 16 ft.

Inspectors that mandate not applicable standards and/or difficult to schedule are my pet peeves.

 

[ultrarunner]

I believe new construction can check all the boxes without question but the wild card is the quality of the work performed…

My AZ friends like the layout, floor plan and amenities but shocked at the defects uncovered…

There is no doubt in my mind that new construction has the potential to be far better than old.
I have turned an 1800’s barn into living space, built a home from scratch 40 years ago, and just completed a retirement home for myself and my wife.

The last project benefits from the advances in technology and efficiency using a 95% boiler for radiant heat and a 24 SEER heat pump for AC and spring and fall heat. Insulation is R50 in the ceiling and R28 in the walls. Modern doors and windows that seal up tight. An Energy Recovery ventilation system that maintains a positive pressure when burning a fire, or running appliances that vent to the outside. All recessed LED lighting, etc.
None of which is going to be native to an old house.

That’s not to say that you can’t cut corners in construction, either old or new, but if you want to do things right, new is the clear winner if you want to capitalize on what’s available.

 

[ultrarunner]

Avocado and Coffee and Harvest Gold were the colors of the late 1960’s early 70’s.

There were others like Turquoise that never hit mainstream…

Almond was the pushback for a very long time and then Black and Stainless followed by Bisque..

At least in my little corner of California.

Some old fashioned new appliances like Speed Queen much sought after but Green regs have forced much of the changes trading efficiency sacrificing longevity in many cases…

 

[ultrarunner]

Who doesn’t like efficiency?

However I can make the case that payback is often overlooked.

Plenty of 60-75 year old central furnaces here but we seldom need much heat or cooling so why change out for 2 weeks annually?

Moms home with everything old is 2350 square feet of 1958 split level home and electricity month in and month out is always 360 kWh monthly.

 

[FullMetalBucket]

Who doesn’t like efficiency?

However I can make the case that payback is often overlooked.

Plenty of 60-75 year old central furnaces here but we seldom need much heat or cooling so why change out for 2 weeks annually?

I see that.. the goal of efficiency is to save money, but if it cost 10k or more to replace a working furnace and you only run it for 2 weeks, it’s going to take forever to pay for itself.

Not an issue here in the North East. Makes more sense to replace an old inefficient heating system because of how often the thing runs.

 

[WinterDeere]

I see that.. the goal of efficiency is to save money, but if it cost 10k or more to replace a working furnace and you only run it for 2 weeks, it’s going to take forever to pay for itself.

This has been my gripe with refrigerators. We've been in this house 14 years, and I've honestly lost count of the number of kitchen refrigerators we've been through. The last one failed inside warranty, something like 20 months old, but warranty service was so slow that I just replaced it.

Sure, maybe they contain less refrigerant than older units, and use slightly less electricity. But when you need to manufacture and then landfill a new one every second year, I'm not convinced the net savings is in the right direction, no matter how it's measured.

 

[BnRidge]

When contractors come into a place to do a job, say replace a furnace or add a kitchen hood/fan, they generally do the job they are called on to do, and all previous work is ignored. I'm currently renovating an 1846, 180yr old farm house. The things piled one atop another is kind of funny sometimes. It is very satisfying, where I can remove entire swaths of work done one on top of another and clear the way for up to date ideas and materials (with the time period in mind, yet to 2025 codes).
On the other hand, I worked in the sheetmetal trade 10yrs in the 80s. What went on behind the scenes was interesting to watch. When I built in 08, it was by a local contractor, been in business 40yrs, was 70yrs old, carried a stick ruler in his coveralls. All subs I think were building their last home because they all retired soon after. Once it was closed in and drywall primed I was able to complete the rest. People call it the new old place, with the theme designed around 1918, back before power tools and air nailers.

 

[WinterDeere]

People call it the new old place, with the theme designed around 1918, back before power tools and air nailers.

Reminds me of one of my parents' houses. The very last build contract taken by a locally-famous builder, who was in business ca.1910 - 1950's.

He came through our house once in the 1980's, as an old man. While in the basement, he was looking up at the beaded T&G yellow pine subfloor above, laid at 45 degrees to the joists, and shaking his head. He just said, "I couldn't afford to build a house like this today, if I wanted to."

The last project done in that house, before mom sold it, was re-doing the tiled floor in one of the shower stalls. She asked around and found the best tile man in the area. He showed up, and was well into his 70's. Mom worried how he was even going to do the work. At the end of the first day, as he was saying goodnight, he mentioned to my mother that he was the one who did the original tile work on all of our showers and bathrooms, 45 years earlier.

 

[ultrarunner]

This has been my gripe with refrigerators. We've been in this house 14 years, and I've honestly lost count of the number of kitchen refrigerators we've been through. The last one failed inside warranty, something like 20 months old, but warranty service was so slow that I just replaced it.

Sure, maybe they contain less refrigerant than older units, and use slightly less electricity. But when you need to manufacture and then landfill a new one every second year, I'm not convinced the net savings is in the right direction, no matter how it's measured.

Same observation by me too…

Neighbors had a nice Whirlpool Washer Dryer set they got rid of to take advantage of incentives for water and energy efficiency…

They bought a expensive Neptune and I got the old ones…

Nineteen years later zero issues with the Whirlpool but they can’t say the same… on set 3 now and more than once said they would be way ahead had they kept the old Whirlpools.

I can’t tell you how many friends paid good money for LG refrigerators and then experienced compressor failures… mostly out of warranty but then LG said extended parts but customer pays labor.

Again, my hand me down Amana from the 70’s just keeps working…

And what’s with the flat screens have a 5 to 7 year typical life when old CRT would go 20 or more…?

I still have the original Carrier furnace/AC 1990 needing one igniter but no one I know gets more than 12-15 from their new units…

 

[Oaktree]

And what’s with the flat screens have a 5 to 7 year typical life when old CRT would go 20 or more…?

OTOH, would you really want to go back to a CRT tv?

 

[Fixastuff]

Has anyone here insulated a 1860s house? How did you go about it and was it worth it?

 

[WinterDeere]

Has anyone here insulated a 1860s house? How did you go about it and was it worth it?

Yes, and yes.

Balloon-framed construction? Blown-in polystyrene beads used to be a popular way to do that, in fact our "third kitchen" addition (framed 1890's) was insulated this way by a prior owner. It works well, in that we had to empty one stud bay of the beads to do some work a few years ago, and not having ever re-filled it, I notice how much colder that one stud bay is than the rest of our kitchen.

I'm less enamored with the method of blue foam board on masonry walls, the victorian I owned previously was insulated that way by a prior owner. It works, but there are down-sides, the benefit less extreme.

 

[BnRidge]

In the 1840s farm house I stripped one room to the studs and refinished. It had been my old bedroom, and in the coldest winters if I didn't leave the door open it could easily be in the 20s at night(-40outside), with frost on the walls, even with forced air heat. It had balloon framing, horse hair plaster and of course zero insulation. In it's prior life it had been the "bath" room. There is a hole in the floor for the drain to the outside, a patched hole in the wall where a pipe led to the kitchen hand pump and cistern, and a 1x18 plank nailed on the ceiling where a curtain had hung. I put R15 batting in the 2"x4" stud walls, fire breaks top and bottom, R60 in the attic above, visqueen vapor barrier all around, new drywall and paint, new hard maple trim to duplicate the previous. The windows had already been retrofitted with new double hung casement inserts.
Was it worth it? Last winter it was down to -20, and that room was the warmest in the house. One heat run, 50ft from the furnace through uninsulated crawl space was more than enough to heat the room.

 

[kenmbz]

I have had houses from the 1920s to 1980s
My current house , built in the 80's was designed by the previous owner and he was fastidious on everything except electrical.
Steel beam support and most walls are supporting structures.
My 1920's house was built heavy, but not well.
The biggest problem was some identical houses on my block slid off the foundations!

My last 1980's house was built and insulated well, but had cheap windows. and gaps under the eaves and under the bottom of the cedar planking.

My FIl house was built in the late 1700's into the 1800's and when he sold it, we did not buy it.
That house needed a complete redo, including termite infested hand hewn support beams in the dirt basement. Needed new wood around the roof and to have the slate roof fixed.
Someone else took on the work and it almost bankrupted him.
I am sure he spent many times what it cost to buy just to get it into decent shape.

My Uncles house built in the 1800s (the added rooms had newspaper insulation with some readable from the 1860's) was all lathe and wood on typical stone foundation.
The PO had put a pot belly stove on the second floor, and the weight over the decades sank that part of the house.
Eventually my uncle got tired of putting money into it and sold it. They knocked most of the house down and only kept the 1860s part.
The original front room had been the town library around the early 1900's and had books from the 1890's up.

Both my FIl and my Uncles houses were hand built by their owners and other locals.
Both required huge maintenance, windows that would not open, poor insulation and lots of drafts.

I am happy with my 80's house now, least amount of work so far, just some roof leaks around the stone chimney and a few electrical glitches.

My 1920s house also had been redone quite a bit by the previous owner, he did the work himself and he had no idea how to do it.
I had to rip out walls, bathroom floor and a staircase to fix his inept updates.
Staircase with supports only on three sides, open live wires stuffed into spaces as they got closed up. Roof with multiple layers of wood and shingles.
When he redid the downstairs shower, he reused the tub and drain pipe, added a layer of tiles and screwed back down the drain, so there was a gap under the tub where water rotted out the woods holding up the floor. I figured it out before I fell through, but just barely, removed most of the 2x4s under the shower without tools !

Inspections are key and I hired good ones and worked with them on last two houses.
Did not want any more surprises!

So doing your due diligence with inspections and knowledgeable people is more important than age.

 

[WinterDeere]

My FIl house was built in the late 1700's into the 1800's and when he sold it, we did not buy it... Someone else took on the work and it almost bankrupted him.

Speaking of which, how's my uncle's old place coming along? Pic's welcome!

I had plans to buy that house, but the timing did not work out in my favor, and my wife has outgrown living in the "old house construction zones" to which I subjected her the first decade of our marriage.

 

[kenmbz]

Speaking of which, how's my uncle's old place coming along? Pic's welcome!

I had plans to buy that house, but the timing did not work out in my favor, and my wife has outgrown living in the "old house construction zones" to which I subjected her tbuildinghe first decade of our marriage.

They are redoing the building to the right now.
I will see if I can get pics later or tomorrow.
They are also working on the landscaping a lot.
Can't imagine the amount of money they are pouring into it, but they so far are keeping the look and feel.
There is another house around the corner that just changed hands and they are rebuilding the barns, also keeping the look and feel.
It's nice to see that.
When they redid my FIl house, they changed the windows to more modern ones and the roof to regular shingles from the slate, so it looks very different.

 

[WinterDeere]

Cool! Yeah, you gotta keep the original windows.

We have all old sash, seemingly original to the 1775 addition, and maybe even two casement windows that go back to the older 1730's house that the current building sits upon. It seems some or most of the frames have been replaced once in the 250 - 300 years since, which is pretty good, considering modern "replacement windows" never seem to last more than 30 years.