Tractor might be shot - now working on compression testing and have questions

[Omnipotent]

Posted in Bobcat thread, but this is a generic engine question so placing here for more feedback.

Long story short, we just went into a deep freeze and a snow storm, so the tractor was needed. Went to move the tractor into "position" by the driveway the day before, tractor was hard to start but I just attributed to cold and been several weeks since it was last run, started, drove and turned off. Next morning, again really hard to start, so hard that I needed a battery jumper to get it going...after 2-3 minutes of work, tractor started and off I went to clear driveway. About half way through I notice antifreeze smell, by the time I noticed it I had been using it for ~20 minutes (thought is was steam from snow until I got a whiff) and then another ~5 minutes turned tractor off and parked it.

Now the fun begins, next day went out to use it again (wind blown drifts upwards of 2 feet over night)...tractor wouldn't start. Got out the battery tender again, threw it on 200 Amp and could get it to start for 5 seconds or so, but then it would die. Over and over again. Gave up and got out the snow blower.

Fast forward a couple more days and today was a warmer day (40 degrees) and decided to go take a look at tractor. Same, same. Throw on battery tender and crank away...got it to run for the longest of <20 seconds. Can't place any load on it or dies immediately. Trying to crank up RPM's dies as well.

Checked oil, plenty there. Checked anti freeze, low to empty, added anti freeze (during all the cranking and short stints of running, could not see any leak from radiator or hoses). What I did notice is oil burning through the exhaust pipe (the section where to two pipes join, oil bubbling out and burning). For the record, it seems like when it runs it's running much rougher, although I could be off on that, but seems like a loud knocking that may or may not have been there all along (you know when things are wrong you start hearing everything).

My gut is telling me I blew a head gasket and because of the lack of compression that is why the engine keeps dying after 10-20 seconds...thoughts? Other ideas?

 

[TractorTYMe]

I would take it for granted that you know how to treat fuel with ani-gel so we can rule that out?

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Lack of coolant, and oil bubbling on exhaust junction?

Ok, Bobcat is really a Kioti, with different paint. You may also try their forum. The tractor is the same except for the loader as I recall

Does that engine have an EGR? If that fails, it could cause issues you speak of

 

[newbury]

Did it idle for a long time? If so it might be "wet stacked".
Look it up. Might be fixed by working it hard.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Where did all the coolant go though

 

[Williy]

If you smell antifreeze coming from your exhaust, it usually indicates a blown head gasket, cracked cylinder head, or cracked engine block

willy

 

[4570Man]

The coolant loss issue isn’t going to get any better with use. It’s time to haul it to a mechanic.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Posted in Bobcat thread, but this is a generic engine question so placing here for more feedback.

Long story short, we just went into a deep freeze and a snow storm, so the tractor was needed. Went to move the tractor into "position" by the driveway the day before, tractor was hard to start but I just attributed to cold and been several weeks since it was last run, started, drove and turned off. Next morning, again really hard to start, so hard that I needed a battery jumper to get it going...after 2-3 minutes of work, tractor started and off I went to clear driveway. About half way through I notice antifreeze smell, by the time I noticed it I had been using it for ~20 minutes (thought is was steam from snow until I got a whiff) and then another ~5 minutes turned tractor off and parked it.

Now the fun begins, next day went out to use it again (wind blown drifts upwards of 2 feet over night)...tractor wouldn't start. Got out the battery tender again, threw it on 200 Amp and could get it to start for 5 seconds or so, but then it would die. Over and over again. Gave up and got out the snow blower.

Fast forward a couple more days and today was a warmer day (40 degrees) and decided to go take a look at tractor. Same, same. Throw on battery tender and crank away...got it to run for the longest of <20 seconds. Can't place any load on it or dies immediately. Trying to crank up RPM's dies as well.

Checked oil, plenty there. Checked anti freeze, low to empty, added anti freeze (during all the cranking and short stints of running, could not see any leak from radiator or hoses). What I did notice is oil burning through the exhaust pipe (the section where to two pipes join, oil bubbling out and burning). For the record, it seems like when it runs it's running much rougher, although I could be off on that, but seems like a loud knocking that may or may not have been there all along (you know when things are wrong you start hearing everything).

My gut is telling me I blew a head gasket and because of the lack of compression that is why the engine keeps dying after 10-20 seconds...thoughts? Other ideas?

I doubt it "blew a head gasket" while attempting to start it on a cold morning. We're not getting the whole story here. So the tractor had been sitting unused for a few weeks. I'm betting some of the current issues were present back then. Any starting or overheating problems in the recent history just prior to that few weeks of non use?

 

[Mike1955]

The coolant loss issue isn’t going to get any better with use. It’s time to haul it to a mechanic.

4570man it may be a simple external leak near a hot place. I hate to see shops rip people off, if they can do the work themselves.

 

[Hay Dude]

Have you checked the oil for coolant and the coolant for oil? Is the cooling system over pressurizing? Blown head gaskets usually put too much pressure in cooling system resulting in bubbling cooling or puking coolant.

 

[WinterDeere]

Step 1: Drain oil, watch for water/coolant in first seconds, as its heavier than oil and will be the first thing coming from the bottom of the oil pan if it's there. You may want to phone a friend or set up a video recording, just to be sure you don't somehow miss seeing the first seconds of draining on your own.

Coolant in the oil doesn't always mean engine trouble, it could be a bad oil cooler instead, but the hard starting makes me think loss of compression and head gasket.

Step 2 would be some debug work, before jumping to tear it down. Compression and leak-down tests, which if run at TDC vs. BDC, can distinguish between head gasket and bad block.

 

[Omnipotent]

Where did all the coolant go though

Good question...first though was freeze plugs, but checked them all an no leaking. Since I could smell it, I assume it wasn't burning it internally (could be absolutely wrong on that) but I could not find where it is going, so my thought led to rings/head gasket being the issue.

 

[Omnipotent]

I doubt it "blew a head gasket" while attempting to start it on a cold morning. We're not getting the whole story here. So the tractor had been sitting unused for a few weeks. I'm betting some of the current issues were present back then. Any starting or overheating problems in the recent history just prior to that few weeks of non use?

Nope, hadn't used just because hadn't needed it. Used it all year with no issues, don't get me wrong, the tractor has had its issues over the years, but those had been handled.

Also, I don't believe the head gasket blew while cranking, more so, while I was using and I noticed the smell, which at looking I thought was just steam from the snow hitting the exhaust and such...it wasn't until I turned into the wind that I got the whiff of antifreeze, so I had been using it for ~20 minutes prior to that. I believe "if" a head gasket blew, it was during this time of use, engine over heated and popped the gasket.

 

[Omnipotent]

Step 1: Drain oil, watch for water/coolant in first seconds, as its heavier than oil and will be the first thing coming from the bottom of the oil pan if it's there. You may want to phone a friend or set up a video recording, just to be sure you don't somehow miss seeing the first seconds of draining on your own.

Coolant in the oil doesn't always mean engine trouble, it could be a bad oil cooler instead, but the hard starting makes me think loss of compression and head gasket.

Step 2 would be some debug work, before jumping to tear it down. Compression and leak-down tests, which if run at TDC vs. BDC, can distinguish between head gasket and bad block.

Thanks for the advice...not a diesel mechanic obviously, but worked on motors forever and this is the path I was going to go down, but have to get it indoors to get started on troubleshooting....oh and more snow tomorrow so the tractor sits dead in the yard for the time being.

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Does it have an EGR?

 

[WinterDeere]

Thanks for the advice...not a diesel mechanic obviously, but worked on motors forever and this is the path I was going to go down, but have to get it indoors to get started on troubleshooting....oh and more snow tomorrow so the tractor sits dead in the yard for the time being.

Measurement is easy, diagnosis is hard. If you're able to measure compression and leakdown, that might be good information to feed forward to a mechanic, before deciding to haul it in. Then again, if you don't have the gauges and fittings, it might be easier to just start with the mechanic.

But I would do at least a fluid change first. I wouldn't even want to try to limp it onto a trailer, if the oil pan is full of water.

 

[Omnipotent]

Does it have an EGR?

I'm honestly not sure...there is an oval contraption right off the manifold that leads to the exhaust pipe coming out the bottom of the tractor, maybe that's the EGR?

 

[Jstpssng]

Is there any chance that the coolant froze and cracked the block?

 

[Omnipotent]

Is there any chance that the coolant froze and cracked the block?

Anything is possible, but in examining the block I didn't "notice" any cracks/leaks...then again I was really checking out freeze plugs and around the head.

 

[Omnipotent]

OK guys, I'm back and new question...trying to do a compression test per cylinder and then would move to leak down if compression test seemed reasonable. Bought a Diesel test tool, took about 2 million widgets off to be able to get to the injectors and removed #2 (easiest one to work on)...all fuel lines are disconnected from other injectors and I had to remove intake manifold in order to gain proper angle/clearance to install adapter. Installed (not properly torqued, FYI) and cranked, nothing, zero needle movement, did this 3 times, nothing. Thought maybe "cheap" gauge might be issue, connected to air compressor at 100 PSI, registered 100 PSI, so gauge works.

Question - do you need the intake manifold on for this? I wouldn't think so as it's just sucking air in and why should it matter if it's coming through the intake filter or directly into head? Exhaust side is fully intact...I've only removed fuel lines and intake manifold, other 2 injectors are still installed, albeit with no fuel lines, again my brain says it shouldn't make a difference.

I haven't moved to the other cylinders as I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong because it should register more than zero one would assume.

JD