Starter help

[AndrewCobb23]

I’ve got a 2020 Kioti CK2610H that I’ve owned since new. 300+ hours on it. Starter solenoid gave it up today so I called the dealer. Can’t buy just a solenoid. Have to buy the entire starter at almost $700!
I thought SURELY I can find a non-OEM option. No dice, as far as I can tell. The OEM part number is E6864-63011. It is a Valeo starter, I think the manufacture p/n is 1199196.
I can find new (cheaper) starters for every other tractor model that does NOT use this particular starter but there does not seem to be a cross reference to use an alternate starter for this tractor. I can’t figure out why but SURELY there is something else I can use in its place?
I am 99% sure it is the solenoid/starter and not the ignition switch. Key in crank position I had a buddy tap the solenoid and it engaged the starter but did not disengage. I pulled the single wire to the solenoid and it was still engaged and spinning the starter, even with the key off. I pulled the solenoid off and checked the plunger and it moves freely, return spring isn't broken and the actuator arm for the starter gear moves back and forth freely. Any ideas?

 

[RjCorazza]

Can you post a picture of the solenoid?

 

[alexpops]

Any rebuilders near you? Pretty sure you can get a solenoid from them, or a rebuilt if they don't want to deal in "parts".

 

[AndrewCobb23]

Can you post a picture of the solenoid?

I will get one here shortly.
I’m wondering at this point, after doing some more pondering, IF the ignition switch is working properly, cutting power to the starter relay etc, wouldn’t it stop the starter from spinning once the key is turned off? I can hear the tractor cut fuel and stop running so I believe the stop circuit is working but the starter keeps spinning and turning the engine.
I did also swap the start relay for the light relay above it so it is a good relay..

 

[jonwarner]

Maybe try pulling the solenoid out of it and see if there are any part numbers on it?

 

[AndrewCobb23]

The only numbers on it are smudged…it says Valeo on the other end and maybe 6190915. Can’t find anything related to that number.

 

[AndrewCobb23]

I have found a solenoid that is very close to this one, the signal terminal is different but shouldn’t matter. Unfortunately I had to order it and have to wait until next week to get it. I am going to see if the dealer might have it even though they say they can’t get a solenoid for that particular starter…

 

[RjCorazza]

I will get one here shortly.
I’m wondering at this point, after doing some more pondering, IF the ignition switch is working properly, cutting power to the starter relay etc, wouldn’t it stop the starter from spinning once the key is turned off? I can hear the tractor cut fuel and stop running so I believe the stop circuit is working but the starter keeps spinning and turning the engine.
I did also swap the start relay for the light relay above it so it is a good relay..

Not a mechanic, but couldn't the starter solenoid fail and remain in the"start" condition? I've only had solenoid failures where it fails to make the connection (click click), but see no reason why the contacts couldn't have seized closed.
I was hoping the solenoid photo may be more generic. With it in hand, perhaps you could search some internet product photos and match something up. That's what I did with my Kubota zero turns years ago, and bought $20 solenoids on eBay / Amazon. The OEM starters are outrageously expensive.
Drifting a little, my repeated solenoid failures were due to being located right beneath the exhaust manifold (like 2"). I installed heat shields over them and no failures since.

On edit, I see that you've had some luck while I was typing. That trigger connection shouldn't be a problem. Hope it all works out for you!

 

[jonwarner]

Maybe a Valeo 1250995, just a guess from pictures...

 

[AndrewCobb23]

Maybe a Valeo 1250995, just a guess from pictures...

I thought so too but there aren’t enough pics to compare. It looks like the body is shorter and the spring sits on the moveable core differently. I have a call in with a local shop that is going to check on it.

 

[part-time-Farmer-NC]

Maybe reach out to Valeo directly?

Contact

Customer Service:
Phone: 1-888-718-2536

Technical Support:
Phone: 1-888-718-2536, Press 2

 

[flyerdan]

First test would be to ohm out the big terminals, it should be infinite with it off the starter. If there is zero or little resistance, I would suspect that the disc has arced against the contacts and is not releasing, which would give the condition indicated.
Unfortunately, the solenoid pictured has a crimped end holding the bakelite end cap in so taking it apart and cleaning it would be rather difficult. But for $700, I'd spend a fair amount of time with a beveled file tang taking that crimp out so it can be serviced.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

First I'd put a remote starter on the starter and test the function on the machine to confirm that it is the solenoid and not something else. If no crank jumping the solenoid, then you can ohm it out out as others have suggested. If confirmed solenoid either call your local rebuilder or call that # for the company that was posted.

The long and short is a good parts person where mechanics go may also be able to find the equivalent.

Also, the link goes to the remote starter switch I use.

 

[Arrowsic21]

I'm having the same problem. What was your solution?

 

[IH3444]

New KIOTI solenoid for E5500-63016 starter on CK, DK, LK, NX, & RX tractors | eBay

This starter is used on various Kioti tractor models, including the CK, DK, and LK series. Why replace the whole starter when you could get a new solenoid for a fraction of the cost of a starter?. CK3510 Tractor STARTER MOTOR GROUP T5810-G711A.

www.ebay.com

 

[3StrikesNC]

Just found this thread. I’m now in this boat, starter main lug to the starter housing is a dead short. Guess it’s rebuild the starter of was just quoted about $500+ by Kioti dealer. CK 3510 H

 

[flyerdan]

It looks like the bakelite housing will come off the back of that solenoid. You should be able to take it apart and clean the copper bolts and plunger. If it's a direct short, the plunger is probably slightly spot welded to one of the bolts by arcing and will free up and work normally when cleaned up. If the bolt heads are eroded, they can be carefully tapped out and rotated so the new part faces in.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

Since misery loves company....

Some time ago, I had my tractor up at my Tinkerage to do the major hy-tran service and to puzzle out a mystery hy-tran leak. Long story short: after puzzling out the hytran leak, getting my local mechanical shop to rebuild Kioti's un-rebuildable lift cylinder for a song, and doing the hy-tran service, the stupid tractor stopped starting with the key. Key on, I can use a remote starter to start it, but no key start.

So I know:

(1) the starter solenoid is good because I can jump it.
(2) The ECU is ready to work once running (like cars, it may have a start map that is different than the run map—and yes, it is a diesel, and I'm saying "map" so work with it)
(3) and obviously the fuel shut off solenoid isn't trying to shut off since I can start it by jumping the starter solenoid.

My trouble is that my NX, being the 44th one made, is extremely early, and the service manual I have doesn't quite cover early HST models as accurately as a guy would hope (cf. front axle differences et el.). Moreover, Kioti in the manual I have talks about a "starter relay" that I don't have (unless starter relay is Kioti speak for starter solenoid) and a "safety start relay" that sounds like it is for gear models. If I have it, I have no idea where it is. My relays are under the hood and in the fuse box in the cab and I know what each of those does....

Anyway, while I'm certain my no-start problem is unbelievably simple, since I cannot talk to the ECU to find out what it thinks is missing, I'm left puzzling.

 

[flyerdan]

It sounds like a safety switch issue, test the start terminal on the ignition switch for +12v, then test the wire to the starter solenoid. If there isn't +12v, there is a safety circuit preventing it. The safety nannies will piss orange juice, but I'd advise running a wire direct from the switch to the solenoid so it will at least work while you suss out the issue.

 

[MinnesotaEric]

It sounds like a safety switch issue, test the start terminal on the ignition switch for +12v, then test the wire to the starter solenoid. If there isn't +12v, there is a safety circuit preventing it. The safety nannies will piss orange juice, but I'd advise running a wire direct from the switch to the solenoid so it will at least work while you suss out the issue.

I tend to agree with you that it is something stupid. I have tested the control lead to the solenoid, and there is no signal.

I've also bypassed the PTO safety relay, the engine emergency stop PTO safety start relay, the neutral safety relay, and the cruise PTO brake relay.

For grins and giggles, I cleaned the battery posts, as well as the body ground. I've swapped out all of the relays under the hood, since i didn't have a good way to test those by myself, and I've cleaned their relay sockets. Noticing that all my fuses looked "dark," I replaced all of them and popped the left-hand bulkhead off and inspected the underside of the fuse box, looking for char. I confirmed all the wires are pushed into the fuse box properly. I popped all the wire connections under the hood, and going to the ECU and inspected them.

Next, I will pop out the seat so I can remove the right-hand bulkhead to get at the lousy safety computer because apparently, I don't know how to bypass it.

It would be really neat if my $1000 scan tool could talk to my Kioti's ECU.

Oh, I thought I had found the problem, but it turned out to just be goop and not a fried wire.