Power Conditioning Options While on Portable Generator

[bcs001]

I know this has been discussed in various threads but I'm looking for a good solution that I can implement in 2-3 locations where my sensitive electronics are located while running the whole house on a Duromax XP1200EH. From the reading I've done here and on the web, I know an online double conversion UPS seems to be a good local point option. The way I have my home setup, all the modems, routers, switches, access points and soon-to be server PC are all centrally located and can be run from one ~900 watt unit. I also have an office where I can run 2 laptops, printers, phones etc from another 700-900 UPS. That leaves a large LCD smart TV, satellite box & soundbar in one room and everything else in the house unprotected.

Depending on the cost for each UPS I could add additional point protection in other locations but so far from what I have seen shopping for these units, the decent ones are running $700-$1000 each. Maybe there are other options that can be suggested from the experts here? Long term I plan to install a permanent whole house backup that will include power conditioning but for the next 2-3 years this is what I have. I've been running without protection for a few years now but I know it is causing a slow degradation of the electronics as I can hear the engine bog down when large loads kick in like the well pump and refrigerators.

According to Duromax the XP1200EH has the following specs:

"DuroMax portable generators will output an average total harmonic distortion (THD) rating of about 5% under steady loads and may increase under heavy or fluctuating loads to 12% temporarily for less than a few seconds. Our open frame models will produce a sine wave, not a modified or square wave. This is perfectly acceptable for running most common electronics found in your home such as TVs, computers, appliances, etc."

12% THD is very concerning and I can see the LED flood bulbs flickering at time. They also seem to burn out way faster than expected and I am attributing that to the time I run on generator power.

Thanks for any suggestions and hopefully others will find this thread useful and informative.

 

[arto98607]

I have ran our modem, router, Wi-Fi, TV and PC's on our dual fuel 3.2 kW Firman inverter generator without any problems!

Not sure if there are any 12 kW inverter models available?

 

[ponytug]

I know this has been discussed in various threads but I'm looking for a good solution that I can implement in 2-3 locations where my sensitive electronics are located while running the whole house on a Duromax XP1200EH. From the reading I've done here and on the web, I know an online double conversion UPS seems to be a good local point option. The way I have my home setup, all the modems, routers, switches, access points and soon-to be server PC are all centrally located and can be run from one ~900 watt unit. I also have an office where I can run 2 laptops, printers, phones etc from another 700-900 UPS. That leaves a large LCD smart TV, satellite box & soundbar in one room and everything else in the house unprotected.

Depending on the cost for each UPS I could add additional point protection in other locations but so far from what I have seen shopping for these units, the decent ones are running $700-$1000 each. Maybe there are other options that can be suggested from the experts here? Long term I plan to install a permanent whole house backup that will include power conditioning but for the next 2-3 years this is what I have. I've been running without protection for a few years now but I know it is causing a slow degradation of the electronics as I can hear the engine bog down when large loads kick in like the well pump and refrigerators.

According to Duromax the XP1200EH has the following specs:

"DuroMax portable generators will output an average total harmonic distortion (THD) rating of about 5% under steady loads and may increase under heavy or fluctuating loads to 12% temporarily for less than a few seconds. Our open frame models will produce a sine wave, not a modified or square wave. This is perfectly acceptable for running most common electronics found in your home such as TVs, computers, appliances, etc."

12% THD is very concerning and I can see the LED flood bulbs flickering at time. They also seem to burn out way faster than expected and I am attributing that to the time I run on generator power.

Thanks for any suggestions and hopefully others will find this thread useful and informative.

I'm sorry that you don't have power. I hope that you have enough fuel for your needs. Congratulations on having a working generator. Don't forget to check the oil daily!

A few thoughts. One, don't believe generator specifications. They may or may not be as bad as they claim. (And can certainly be worse!) Unless you hook up your power quality meter ($$$), there is no way to know. Two, and perhaps more importantly, I think what you really want to know is how does it affect your equipment. That's a whole other ball game.

Having quality surge suppressors around the house helps reduce the "EMF noise" on the power. They won't help the voltage and frequency sags when your AC kicks in, or your water pump kicks in. (And vice versa when they stop.) Your UPS will help with all of that.

It sounds to me like you have it covered, unless you have been having issues with the TV/satellite box / sound bar. Personally, I would put them on a quality surge suppressor, and call it good enough. If you have been having issues, then yes, a pure sine wave online UPS is what you need.

As a FYI, as you add online pure sine wave UPS units around the house, they will add some, not a lot, but some, buffering of the whole house EMF noise.

In my book, pretty much everything electronic from the washing machine on up ought to be on a good surge suppressors. There are so many electronic boards embedded in appliances and other equipment. I think that a few surge suppressors are cheap insurance.

One final thought: I try not to have UPS loads be more than a third, or so, of the rated power of the UPS. I think that many UPS units are under cooled/overrated and running them at closer to their ratings causes reduced lifetimes, at least in my experience.

All the best,

Peter

 

[DarkBlack]

Surge protectors only attempt to draw down momentary over voltages. They don’t do anything to clean up a dirty 60hz sine wave. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling bs.
Linear power supplies are getting rare. Computers etc are all running switchers. The front end of these convert to dc, so noisy 60hz isn’t a big deal other than some transients passing through.
Any Electronics company worth their name, knows they need to design in a decent power supply worth their reputation which means a power supply Able to reject and/or process noise on the 60hz sine wave.
If you think you spent a lot of $ on a product with a substandard power supply, then, probably get yourself a good dc-ac converter.
But, no, a “surge protector” power strip isn’t going to do anything at all to clean up a dirty sine wave other than cost more

 

[ponytug]

Surge protectors only attempt to draw down momentary over voltages. They don’t do anything to clean up a dirty 60hz sine wave. Anyone telling you otherwise is selling bs.
Linear power supplies are getting rare. Computers etc are all running switchers. The front end of these convert to dc, so noisy 60hz isn’t a big deal other than some transients passing through.
Any Electronics company worth their name, knows they need to design in a decent power supply worth their reputation which means a power supply Able to reject and/or process noise on the 60hz sine wave.
If you think you spent a lot of $ on a product with a substandard power supply, then, probably get yourself a good dc-ac converter.
But, no, a “surge protector” power strip isn’t going to do anything at all to clean up a dirty sine wave other than cost more

Yes, you are right, a gas tube or a metal oxide varistor isn't going to clean up power.

However, most quality surge strips do include capacitors and inductors that definitely do help clean up the power.
Here's one from Isobar/Eaton;

Buyer beware!

All the best,

Peter

 

[bcs001]

I wasn’t aware that certain surge suppressors can help with power conditioning but that’s good to know. I do have a Siemens First Surge 140 who house suppressor installed at the main box. Maybe it helps to a degree but is it enough?

Assuming additional protection would be good insurance, are there any recommendations for specific dual conversion UPS brands that offer good balance between cost and performance? I have read that some brands of battery backups do not like the “dirty” input power when running on generator and will drain the battery instead of passing generator power thru.

 

[CalG]

Hmm, I've got an old instrument isolation transformer out in the shop. It likely came out of a spectrophotometer or the like. Maybe I should dust it off and see what it can do!

 

[ponytug]

I wasn’t aware that certain surge suppressors can help with power conditioning but that’s good to know. I do have a Siemens First Surge 140 who house suppressor installed at the main box. Maybe it helps to a degree but is it enough?

Assuming additional protection would be good insurance, are there any recommendations for specific dual conversion UPS brands that offer good balance between cost and performance? I have read that some brands of battery backups do not like the “dirty” input power when running on generator and will drain the battery instead of passing generator power thru.

I think that the Siemens is great for the house generally, but unlike the surge suppressor strips, it really is only for attenuating voltage spikes.

I think that the other nice thing about the surge suppressor strips is that the clamp voltage tends to be lower than the whole house surge suppressors that gives your home electronics a little more buffering.

@CalG that isolation transformer helps a little; the limiting item tends to be the quality of the insulation in the windings. So they are good for smoothing over small voltage fluctuations and high frequency noise, and for separating neutral from ground, but not that great against surges.

All the best,

Peter

 

[zzvyb6]

I believe that just about all modern electronics run fine with dirty A/C because they convert the input voltage to a D.C. operating requirement in all cases. So, why worry? If still on the fence, then an inverter genny will give you what is wanted. Buy based on ratings. There are quite a few diesel inverter generators out there now...

 

[DarkBlack]

Yes, you are right, a gas tube or a metal oxide varistor isn't going to clean up power.

However, most quality surge strips do include capacitors and inductors that definitely do help clean up the power.
Here's one from Isobar/Eaton;

Buyer beware!

All the best,

Peter

That certainly looks like a premium surge protector, almost like a power conditioner. It’s definitely not your average $15 “surge protector”.
I’d be interested in some actual specifications on it other than just a joules number.

 

[DarkBlack]

I believe that just about all modern electronics run fine with dirty A/C because they convert the input voltage to a D.C. operating requirement in all cases. So, why worry? If still on the fence, then an inverter genny will give you what is wanted. Buy based on ratings. There are quite a few diesel inverter generators out there now...

My 5k generator is the older brush type. Dirty 60hz power. I’ve used it for powering the whole house for years during multi day outages. Nothing has not worked with it, or unexpectedly failed, BUT you can actually hear the electrical noise on some loads, especially my HiFi receiver which is a hybrid class A amp fed from a linear power supply. The large electrolytic caps on the power supply transformer secondary aren’t fast enough to absorb the quick transients. I can hear it directly from the receiver, and also a low level of it making it out to the speakers.
You can also hear a different sound from the refrigerator running. Nothing burning out, but a slight waste of power nonetheless

 

[bcs001]

That certainly looks like a premium surge protector, almost like a power conditioner. It’s definitely not your average $15 “surge protector”.
I’d be interested in some actual specifications on it other than just a joules number.

There isn't much detail on electrical performance but this is from the mfgr datasheet:

Data sheet US2:FS140
FirstSurge type 2 surge protective device. Rated 120/240V split pahse (Up to
400A) at 50/60Hz. Surge spike capacity 140kA. Special features: less than 1
nanosecond response time, Nema 4X enclosure (indoor - outdoor), 3 stage
commercial grade notification, ground reference monitoring (GRM), installs onto
any brand load center
General technical data
fastening method Surface
phase number 1
suitability for operation Residential
Electricity
supply voltage frequency rated value 50/60 Hz Yes
voltage between phase and Ground (GND) rated value 120 V
voltage between phase and phase rated value 243 V
Model
product brand name Siemens
product sub brand name FirstSurge
type of electrical connection Wired
Mechanical Design
depth [in] 3 in
height [in] 8 in
material CONTACT MANUFACTURER
width [in] 4 in
General product approval
certificate of suitability UL 1449
last modified: 5/19/2022
US2:FS140

 

[grsthegreat]

Its nearly impossible to clean up the power from a portable generator. Instead of wasting money on trying to clean that unit up, get a good quality whole house unit thats large enough not to bog down under load. My 22 kw powers entire house without noticeable bogging down (after installing soft starter on ac unit). Has not hurt any device in house under many long power outages. I have a siemens fs140 on main panel also, but as started thats for surges. My computers and routers are under ups protection, but nothing else is. Have never had any issues.

Ive had many customers burn out well pumps under portable generator use, but never under whole house use. I service over 300 generator customers.

 

[DarkBlack]

Deep well pumps can burn out from voltage sag, due to the generator being underpowered , but they’re not burning out from dirty power.
I make it a point to keep mine switched off at the breaker panel while other big loads like the electric stove are in use because mine is only 5kw

 

[LittleBill21]

none of those devices need clean power, they are all switching power supplies, cheap ups's which use modified sine wave work just fine on them

 

[ponytug]

That certainly looks like a premium surge protector, almost like a power conditioner. It’s definitely not your average $15 “surge protector”.
I’d be interested in some actual specifications on it other than just a joules number.

I would love to help you out with some specifications, but I have never seen an "In/Out" comparison on the noise reduction of the Isobar units. Yes, it is not a $9 cheapie from Amazon. The photo is the inside a $40-100 surge protector.

Eaton Isobar - the World's Most Trusted Surge Protector | Eaton

Isobar - The world's most trusted premium Surge Protectors with over 20 million in use worldwide! Protect electronics from lightning and voltage spikes. Learn more.

tripplite.eaton.com

Having lived through lightning strikes and surges, I do think that you get what you pay for, and MOV quality and ratings are all over the map.

As far as electrical noise reduction goes, I do think @grsthegreat is right, a whole house generator is more likely to produce cleaner power, I think in part due to size, and in part due to improved controls. I also think that he is right that the electrical clean up effect of a surge suppressor strip is not large, but I also think it is not zero either. Operative phrase here being "more likely". I have had all of my generators apart to tweak / tune / repair them as needed to get reasonable power out of them for my needs, and some designs are certainly better than others.

Still, if the grid is down, and you need power, I think that some power is usually way better than no power. Funnily enough, our most sensitive item is our microwave; if the frequency isn't spot on 60Hz, it really struggles. Other than that, I don't notice any issues, even on an AM radio. (Yes, we lose power here fairly regularly.)

All the best,

Peter

 

[bcs001]

Thanks to all who have contributed to the conversation with their technical expertise. Based on what has been discussed I think my new plan is to pass on the relatively expensive individual online UPSs I was thinking about getting and instead invest in a few high end surge suppressors for all my equipment. That should minimize the long term damage potential until I can get a permanent whole home back up system installed along with an auto transfer switch. I will still look to buy a couple of general purpose UPSs for my network equipment and computers so they wont shut down with each minor power company glitch or when starting and stopping my backup generator.

It was good to learn that most of today's DC powered electronics are much less sensitive to "dirty" portable generator power than I thought and that good quality surge supressors do offer some protection.

 

[geteh]

I know this has been discussed in various threads but I'm looking for a good solution that I can implement in 2-3 locations where my sensitive electronics are located while running the whole house on a Duromax XP1200EH. From the reading I've done here and on the web, I know an online double conversion UPS seems to be a good local point option. The way I have my home setup, all the modems, routers, switches, access points and soon-to be server PC are all centrally located and can be run from one ~900 watt unit. I also have an office where I can run 2 laptops, printers, phones etc from another 700-900 UPS. That leaves a large LCD smart TV, satellite box & soundbar in one room and everything else in the house unprotected.

Depending on the cost for each UPS I could add additional point protection in other locations but so far from what I have seen shopping for these units, the decent ones are running $700-$1000 each. Maybe there are other options that can be suggested from the experts here? Long term I plan to install a permanent whole house backup that will include power conditioning but for the next 2-3 years this is what I have. I've been running without protection for a few years now but I know it is causing a slow degradation of the electronics as I can hear the engine bog down when large loads kick in like the well pump and refrigerators.

According to Duromax the XP1200EH has the following specs:

"DuroMax portable generators will output an average total harmonic distortion (THD) rating of about 5% under steady loads and may increase under heavy or fluctuating loads to 12% temporarily for less than a few seconds. Our open frame models will produce a sine wave, not a modified or square wave. This is perfectly acceptable for running most common electronics found in your home such as TVs, computers, appliances, etc."
defective Takata airbags
12% THD is very concerning and I can see the LED flood bulbs flickering at time. They also seem to burn out way faster than expected and I am attributing that to the time I run on generator power.

Thanks for any suggestions and hopefully others will find this thread useful and informative.

we were looking for a power conditioner to hopefully smooth out the power we're getting from our generator. Our generator plugs into a breakout panel on the side of the house to divert power through part of the house but all the conditioners I'm finding are normal household plug based rather than the 4 pronged generator plug. I'm hoping to make things not only safer for our electronics but also eliminate the flicker we get from some lights.

 

[LouNY]

This type of system will do what you want, then a generator can be used to extend there capacity.
Not inexpensive by any means but a good way to go in many respects;
EcoFlow DELTA Pro Ultra | Whole-Home Backup Power | EcoFlow US
Even just an hour or so's backup would give plenty of time for getting a generator going or just covering short outages.

 

[LittleBill21]

This type of system will do what you want, then a generator can be used to extend there capacity.
Not inexpensive by any means but a good way to go in many respects;
EcoFlow DELTA Pro Ultra | Whole-Home Backup Power | EcoFlow US
Even just an hour or so's backup would give plenty of time for getting a generator going or just covering short outages.

for that price point you get into a nice inverter. and unless you keep it near the panel, its as much work as a generator.