Solar production. Panel ratings/claim vs reality

[tradosaurus]

BAsically same thing I have done over the last 10 years. About once every 2-3 years I get a renewed interest in solar, start crunching numbers, communicating with electric company, and pricing materials. Never could pencil out to better than a ~20yr payback.

Equipment getting cheaper, panels getting cheaper and better, rates going up, and my power company doing a more favorable net metering plan have aligned everything for sub 10-year ROI

That might make me look at solar again if my power company would do that.

 

[ning]

What tipped me over to installing solar was (1) rapidly increasing (California) electricity rates (2) decreasing $/W and (3) a couple really hot (for here) summers. I'm cheap in a way, probably like most TBN'ers are, we'll pay good money to DIY something that gives a long-term return, and I just hated running the AC knowing how much that electricity costs. Oh and (4) I spec'd out how much it would cost for me to do it myself and that 50% savings right there made the money worth it to me (installers have a damn high premium!).

Well, now that I have solar, I'm much more willing to run the AC on hot days... though I know rationally that it's still costing me money, it's just the AC is using electricity I could be putting back on the grid at the highest payback time... but it still seems free (ish) and I'm ok with that, especially since I only run the AC when it's near 90, house stays a decent temp up to about 85 and on not-quite-too-hot days the evenings are cool enough that the whole house fan gets the house cool enough in the night.

Of course we gets summers like this one where it's been 90+ for the past 3-4 weeks and I'm really grateful for the solar.

 

[ultrarunner]

What are those mounts/racking

Right now thats what I am analyzing. I am leaning toward eg4 brightmount

EG4® BrightMount Solar Panel Ground Mount Rack

Durable EG4® BrightMount solar panel ground mount rack, easy to install, withstands 105 mph winds, and backed by a 10-year warranty for lasting performance.

eg4electronics.com

They seem pretty cheap (affordabe) way to mount 4 panels at a time. I just gotta do concrete piers. And they offer limited adjustment 25-30-35 angles.

Watched alot of videos and read some reviews on them....and people seem to like em, but they arent UL listed and as with most cheap stuff, it comes from china. But I literally cannot come up with any other solution remotely close to being able to mount 20 500w panels for ~$1200

All the other racking I am looking at quite pricey and usually not even adjustable.

With the EG4 I can auger holes and do concrete. Concrete would be the only added expense.

One vendor I was communicating with was suggesting integra-rack IR35....but even it seems pricey.

My in ground mounts are:

DP&W Power-Fab
www.power-fab.com
800 260 3792

Nothing light duty about them… occasionally get 100 mph gusts every several years doing lots of damage but 15 years in no issues.

It was a one time purchase on 2009 anchored with lots of concrete.

 

[paulsharvey]

So, first, I'll admit I only made it to post 39, so maybe it's mentioned. Second, I'm going to avoid the cheerleading/demonizing solar; I'm neutral, to me, it's a simple math equation.

So; real question, Insurance. Does your normal homeowners policy cover the panels and auxiliary equipment? If it Does cover it, how much does it add to the cost? If your standard homeowners policy does Not cover it, what type and how much extra does a policy cost? Or are you 100% at Risk? I can legit see an argument that, although a $19k system being 50% damaged is a big risk; maybe it's not a catastrophic loss to you, and being uninsured isn't the end of the world.

Also, with a roof mounted system, is there a risk of a standard policy canceling you? How do they handle the new 20 year roof inspection/replacement requirements to keep insurance (that might be a FLa only issue?).

 

[ponytug]

So, first, I'll admit I only made it to post 39, so maybe it's mentioned. Second, I'm going to avoid the cheerleading/demonizing solar; I'm neutral, to me, it's a simple math equation.

So; real question, Insurance. Does your normal homeowners policy cover the panels and auxiliary equipment? If it Does cover it, how much does it add to the cost? If your standard homeowners policy does Not cover it, what type and how much extra does a policy cost? Or are you 100% at Risk? I can legit see an argument that, although a $19k system being 50% damaged is a big risk; maybe it's not a catastrophic loss to you, and being uninsured isn't the end of the world.

Also, with a roof mounted system, is there a risk of a standard policy canceling you? How do they handle the new 20 year roof inspection/replacement requirements to keep insurance (that might be a FLa only issue?).

Ours does, and it did not change our insurance cost. Go figure. Then again, we have made numerous wildfire hardening changes and home improvements that didn't credit us either, so in my mind it is a wash.

My neighbor's changed significantly when they added solar, but a) it was a big system, and b) it was at a time when many policies were being reviewed for wildfire risk, so it may not have been due to solar as they have significant (to my way of thinking) wildfire risk. Then again, they tend to try to seek out a bargain insurance coverage few years, so who knows?

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

Ours does, and it did not change our insurance cost. Go figure. Then again, we have made numerous wildfire hardening changes and home improvements that didn't credit us either, so in my mind it is a wash.

My neighbor's changed significantly when they added solar, but a) it was a big system, and b) it was at a time when many policies were being reviewed for wildfire risk, so it may not have been due to solar as they have significant (to my way of thinking) wildfire risk. Then again, they tend to try to seek out a bargain insurance coverage few years, so who knows?

All the best,

Peter

No change on my insurance for the 6kW install…

 

[LD1]

So, first, I'll admit I only made it to post 39, so maybe it's mentioned. Second, I'm going to avoid the cheerleading/demonizing solar; I'm neutral, to me, it's a simple math equation.

So; real question, Insurance. Does your normal homeowners policy cover the panels and auxiliary equipment? If it Does cover it, how much does it add to the cost? If your standard homeowners policy does Not cover it, what type and how much extra does a policy cost? Or are you 100% at Risk? I can legit see an argument that, although a $19k system being 50% damaged is a big risk; maybe it's not a catastrophic loss to you, and being uninsured isn't the end of the world.

Also, with a roof mounted system, is there a risk of a standard policy canceling you? How do they handle the new 20 year roof inspection/replacement requirements to keep insurance (that might be a FLa only issue?).

Excellent question. I did call my insurance agent....and I have Erie insurance.

I didnt inquire about a roof mount, but a ground array would be covered under "dwelling extension/other structures" and subject to the limit written in the policy

With Erie thats 20% of whatever the home is valued at. No need to add anything specific to solar panels, and no increase in premium as its automatically covered

 

[Carl_NH]

Our roof mount array is covered as well under the home insurance - no additional premium cost.

On the EG4 mounts why not do an 8 panel array as show in the installation manual and do 3 x 8 with 24 panels per with 12 concrete piers - its two more holes in the ground (vs 10 concrete piers) for the 20 panels?

 

[LD1]

Our roof mount array is covered as well under the home insurance - no additional premium cost.

On the EG4 mounts why not do an 8 panel array as show in the installation manual and do 3 x 8 with 24 panels per with 12 concrete piers - its two more holes in the ground (vs 10 concrete piers) for the 20 panels?

The install manual only shows 4 panel array.

Don't think there is anyway to make the larger 400-500w panels work and cram 8 on there

 

[Carl_NH]

You're correct - I was looking at the picture on the landing page https://eg4electronics.com/nitropac...rightMount-Solar-Panel-Ground-Mount-Rack.webp showing 8 panels - they must be the 39x64" 300-400W panels

 

[LD1]

You're correct - I was looking at the picture on the landing page https://eg4electronics.com/nitropack_static/SbBGCpCePLcXaRGwuXIMyVzcABRhrYXs/assets/images/optimized/rev-a0f0e43/eg4electronics.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/EG4®-BrightMount-Solar-Panel-Ground-Mount-Rack.webp showing 8 panels - they must be the 39x64" 300-400W panels

Even that pic I think is only 4 panels.

Some of the 400-500w panels I have seen are split panels that do actually look like 2

 

[ultrarunner]

Just reviewed current PGE electric bill…

Peak from 4 to 9 pm 64 cents kW not including 7.5 percent city tax

Off peak only 54 cents kW

more to come…

 

[newbury]

Just reviewed current PGE electric bill…

Peak from 4 to 9 pm 64 cents kW not including 7.5 percent city tax

Off peak only 54 cents kW

more to come…

Once again
GAD!!
My ~12cents/kW is looking better and better.

 

[ultrarunner]

Once again
GAD!!
My ~12cents/kW is looking better and better.

Yep… we are pushed to go all electric with bans on wood heat and restriction on natural gas or LP…

It reads like an episode of the Twilight Zone…

I see too many now replacing gas furnaces for heat pumps and grin ear to ear they now have A/C… until the first summer electricity bill arrives!

Much if the Bay Area has a relatively mild climate but I’m hearing from folks with utility bills pushing as much as a thousand bucks for normal homes with kids doing laundry and cooking, etc.

Several grocery stores have publicly said electric bills are killing them… it’s not like you can turn off the freezers from 4-9 pm every evening…

 

[ponytug]

Yep… we are pushed to go all electric with bans on wood heat and restriction on natural gas or LP…

It reads like an episode of the Twilight Zone…

I see too many now replacing gas furnaces for heat pumps and grin ear to ear they now have A/C… until the first summer electricity bill arrives!

Much if the Bay Area has a relatively mild climate but I’m hearing from folks with utility bills pushing as much as a thousand bucks for normal homes with kids doing laundry and cooking, etc.

Several grocery stores have publicly said electric bills are killing them… it’s not like you can turn off the freezers from 4-9 pm every evening…

That's why many business down here are putting in power pack battery systems- a friend in the solar and battery business says the price arbitrage generally gets a business a 2-3 year payback. I also expect to see more grocery stores to go to ammonia/ CO2 refrigeration systems for the increased efficiency.

For us to go off of propane heat, and not be drawing much electrical power would be a 12-16kW solar system, 50-60kWh of batteries, and a standby generator. That's not a solution that works for the average homeowner both from its cost, the required space needed. Californians in the sunny and warmer parts of the state can do it more easily, but when it's 104F during the day and 85F at night, AC costs are not going to be cheap with today's homes.

I think that California needs more homes that a) are air tight, b) have R-40 or 4-50 walls and R-60 ceilings, c) have roof overhangs that keep the summer sun from shining inside, and d) are fire resistant. The change is not going to be inexpensive. For anyone who has lived where there is real winter, California building practices leave a great deal to be desired, and as a result California housing is very energy inefficient. There are state programs to improve that, but building it right the first time is the best solution, and our building codes are seriously lacking. (in my view...)

All the best,

Peter

 

[newbury]

I think that California needs more homes that a) are air tight, b) have R-40 or 4-50 walls and R-60 ceilings, c) have roof overhangs that keep the summer sun from shining inside, and d) are fire resistant.

I think California also needs more people that are willing to live in homes with temps closer to what it is outside. Set thermostats to heat at say 50 degrees F and cool at 82 degrees F.
I used to set the heat in the winter warm enough so we didn't see our breath (wore lots of sweaters), and the cooling in the summer about 82, with LOTS of airflow.

 

[ponytug]

Actually, lots of folks around here do that. We do. The Central Valley not so much, rather like much of the southeast.

I spent time in Tucson, where the heat was pretty incredible to me, but there seemed to be a sub group that did things early in the day and then again late in the day, rather like Spaniards, and hid inside out of the heat and the sun midday. It seemed very sensible to me. It seemed like living with your environment, rather than in spite of it.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

That's why many business down here are putting in power pack battery systems- a friend in the solar and battery business says the price arbitrage generally gets a business a 2-3 year payback. I also expect to see more grocery stores to go to ammonia/ CO2 refrigeration systems for the increased efficiency.

For us to go off of propane heat, and not be drawing much electrical power would be a 12-16kW solar system, 50-60kWh of batteries, and a standby generator. That's not a solution that works for the average homeowner both from its cost, the required space needed. Californians in the sunny and warmer parts of the state can do it more easily, but when it's 104F during the day and 85F at night, AC costs are not going to be cheap with today's homes.

I think that California needs more homes that a) are air tight, b) have R-40 or 4-50 walls and R-60 ceilings, c) have roof overhangs that keep the summer sun from shining inside, and d) are fire resistant. The change is not going to be inexpensive. For anyone who has lived where there is real winter, California building practices leave a great deal to be desired, and as a result California housing is very energy inefficient. There are state programs to improve that, but building it right the first time is the best solution, and our building codes are seriously lacking. (in my view...)

All the best,

Peter

My home can’t complain efficiency wise and my 6kW solar array provides all the electricity I used plus I receive a small check each year.

Mom’s 2400 square feet 1959 construction runs between 300 and 360 kWh a month with refrigerator, freezer, electric dryer, range, etc…

It’s the rates that are killing those with A/C the most…

When I tell folks 64 cents every day from 4-9 pm they think that can't be right… add the 7.5 percent city tax and it’s pushing 70 cents when the meter fee added.

 

[ultrarunner]

Actually, lots of folks around here do that. We do. The Central Valley not so much, rather like much of the southeast.

I spent time in Tucson, where the heat was pretty incredible to me, but there seemed to be a sub group that did things early in the day and then again late in the day, rather like Spaniards, and hid inside out of the heat and the sun midday. It seemed very sensible to me. It seemed like icing itch your environment, rather than in spite of it.

All the best,

Peter

Never lived with A/C at moms and only time we had heat was Christmas when the great aunts would come to stay…

Oakland has pretty mild temps but more people seem to have low tolerance for much variation these days...

 

[Grumpycat]

7.5¢/kWh for "excessive" generated power is excellent. Go ahead and overbuild your system.

Around here we get 2.5¢/kWh for any power we put on the grid, limited to the amount we draw from the grid at 11.5¢/kWh. Is better to get 2.5¢ than to throw it away.

Meanwhile my PV system will have batteries because it isn't worth giving the power to TVA.