Massey Ferguson 1740M Hydro: LOSS OF POWER when hot!

[TopSpeed1]

Yeah, it is disappointing that he didn't post back but I'm guessing if it hadn't fixed it he would have been back on there saying as much, just guessing though!

I'm certainly not advocating that the turbo should be the next item to replace, at the tune of $1,800, but just a consideration.

If I knew that would fix our Massey, it would already be on order though.

I'm sure he had it fixed and (apparently) with the turbo replacement, like you say he would of continued the banter if not.

 

[TopSpeed1]

All common rail injection engines will have a communication port, most are CAN bus and proprietary.
Also most common rail injected engines are designed for a bit more fuel pressure then gravity feed to the high pressure injection pump.
Some turbos will be ECM controlled for boost.
A laptop with the proper software can monitor an engine watching fuel pressure and flow and timing as well as turbo boost.

I think a dyno or 3pt hitch/load on the tractor with a dealer interface hookup to the ECM would be the cats meow.

 

[TopSpeed1]

While we re in a lull here, I had occasion to price a replacement turbo for my 4 cyl Perkins in a MF2660 last Nov. the MF dealer price was $1643 but a rebuild could be had around half that price. Of course the Chinese offerings were wildly scattered from $300 on up. Somewhat academic since the OP machine is still under warrantee. May matter a lot to Yander though?

Yes sir, I know the Turbo's are not cheap.

But here's my thinking. Agco must know of this issue by now, between the 3 different Forum threads that this is directly related to, we know others with this exact same issue. And, if that guys 1735M was fixed by a turbo replacement (well he had injectors replaced as well) wouldn't you think that trial and error (if you cannot dyno and ECM monitor) would be a easy next step.

Like if it doesn't resolve, they just take the new turbo back off and put the old one back on. Process of elimination checked off, go onto plan B (or would this be actually now Plan J or K or even L?)

let's all face the elephant in the room....
My dealer needs a dyno, and the ECM interface w monitoring software! And, AGCO needs to step up and help!
American Equipment in Farmington NY is NOT a small puny dealer!!!!

 

[TopSpeed1]

Turbo replacement Con't...
And if it resolves, dealer sends the defective turbo to Agco, they can inspect & test to see what failed. Truthfully, they probably already know. If you're not going to be modern slash hi-tech (with trouble shooting these power loss situations), then it's the process of elimination method.

 

[DarkBlack]

It was stopped completely w no forward speed, level ground (no HST pedal), full throttle and maybe half RPM range achieved.

Just read this thread.
If the above is accurate, you just described that the engine couldn’t produce enough power to bring rpm’s up sitting still while doing no work, right?
Since you don’t mention any soot/smoke, it certainly would seem like it’s not an injection timing issue, or unseen loading.
Sounds like simply a lack of fuel being injected.
Unforeseen computer intervention aside, mechanically, a seized turbo, or malfunctioning waste gate shouldn’t restrict air so much, as to prevent rpm’s in neutral.
I’m guessing, physical fuel restriction or otherwise faulty fuel injection electrical, like a pressure sensor or the ECU, or a low or high pressure pump

 

[TopSpeed1]

Just read this thread.
If the above is accurate, you just described that the engine couldn’t produce enough power to bring rpm’s up sitting still while doing no work, right?
Since you don’t mention any soot/smoke, it certainly would seem like it’s not an injection timing issue, or unseen loading.
Sounds like simply a lack of fuel being injected.
Unforeseen computer intervention aside, mechanically, a seized turbo, or malfunctioning waste gate shouldn’t restrict air so much, as to prevent rpm’s in neutral.
I’m guessing, physical fuel restriction or otherwise faulty fuel injection electrical, like a pressure sensor or the ECU, or a low or high pressure pump

No smoke from exhaust at anytime. So hopefully injectors are ruled out.

 

[DarkBlack]

No smoke from exhaust at anytime. So hopefully injectors are ruled out.

With your video, and written descriptions, I wouldn’t suspect bad injectors for a second

 

[Yander]

No smoke from exhaust at anytime. So hopefully injectors are ruled out.

Same here, no smoke beyond what is normal. I guess what is puzzling on this problem is the fact that it takes a while for the problem to manifest itself.

Another thing is the power loss when going up even a slight incline is puzzling. In fact, when I was on the road with it, no PTO engaged, it bogged down more going up a slight hill than it did when I was bushhogging on flat ground.

 

[Cbier]

I'm new here and I also have the same problem with a 1735 m hydro. I know these are common rail fuel system which there is a lift pump that pushes fuel through a cooler in front of the radiator to the secondary filter. I put a pressure gauge on the lift pump and I could not get a reading so I'm thinking that there's not a enough fuel pressure going to the injection pump and that may be part of the problem. I am working with a dealer that has a dyno and I'm going to do some more tests and tell them what I have found troubleshooting and take it over then have them hook it to the dyno and their AGCO computer.

 

[hube2]

I didn't know much about turbochargers so I did some reading on the subject.

A turbocharger that is overheating can cause the issue you are seeing. Whether or not it is the cause or why it would take 40 minutes to start showing symptoms I don't know.

You might find this interesting High Temperatures and Turbocharger Wear - Avoid the Heat!

 

[TopSpeed1]

I'm new here and I also have the same problem with a 1735 m hydro. I know these are common rail fuel system which there is a lift pump that pushes fuel through a cooler in front of the radiator to the secondary filter. I put a pressure gauge on the lift pump and I could not get a reading so I'm thinking that there's not a enough fuel pressure going to the injection pump and that may be part of the problem. I am working with a dealer that has a dyno and I'm going to do some more tests and tell them what I have found troubleshooting and take it over then have them hook it to the dyno and their AGCO computer.

Thanks for chiming in with this same problem on your 1735M HST.

Super glad your dealer has a dyno, and with an interface connection to their Agco diagnostic software; it should be a done deal for troubleshooting once the power loss occurs on the dyno.

If and when it gets fixed or resolved, please ping-it back in here. The other gentleman who got this fixed never replied back (on the other Forum) and was probably just happy and on his merry way. Understandable, but it doesn't help others like you or myself or any future readers who will have this issue.

 

[TopSpeed1]

I didn't know much about turbochargers so I did some reading on the subject.

A turbocharger that is overheating can cause the issue you are seeing. Whether or not it is the cause or why it would take 40 minutes to start showing symptoms I don't know.

You might find this interesting High Temperatures and Turbocharger Wear - Avoid the Heat!

I read that article, TY. Even though that was more "Industrial" equipment and mostly related to heat, our small turbos could have been harmed in a way that they do not operate correctly anymore under "hot" exhaust load temps. I use to be involved in No-Prep drag racing and hot turbos were never a good thing.

It only keeps the "turbo" as a possible cause and that much more. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the turbo, fuel pump, lift OR still even the injectors (but as said^^^, you'd think you'd have smoke on an in-efficient combustion/burn).

-> Seeing that this is having more and more owners come forward with this exact same issue, (for me) this is eliminating the personal stuff like clogged fuel line or congested fuel tank theories.

I truly believe the smoking gun is going to be hardware related.

 

[Bavarian]

A turbo can only created boost if there is enough fuel injected.
ECMs in Common Rail Systems monitor both.

Now is the question what's been there first, the hen or the egg.

 

[DarkBlack]

A turbo can only created boost if there is enough fuel injected.
ECMs in Common Rail Systems monitor both.

Now is the question what's been there first, the hen or the egg.

Technically, the ECM and sensors have to be first, then the fuel, then the resulting heat and air movement to drive the turbo.

 

[Yander]

Have those of you experiencing this issue noticed a distinct link between using the hydraulics to go up an incline either while bush hogging or not.

Our Massey is guttles going up an incline of any grade, my little Yanmar is not, both hydrostatic. Usually bushhog in 2nd range on Massey.

My case Shuttle Shift is a beast in every aspect incline or not.

 

[TopSpeed1]

Have those of you experiencing this issue noticed a distinct link between using the hydraulics to go up an incline either while bush hogging or not.

Our Massey is guttles going up an incline of any grade, my little Yanmar is not, both hydrostatic. Usually bushhog in 2nd range on Massey.

My case Shuttle Shift is a beast in every aspect incline or not.

Okay, I'll put mine out there (if it hasn't been clear enough).....

-> When I turn the (steering) wheel sharp, the RPM's decrease.
-> Going up a slight incline you get the drop, actual hills you can get down to creeping speeds at best.
-> Taller grass mowing, the same. Beginning of the mowing it will eat up anything in it's path.
-> Back-ho work, at first, plenty of bucket power to cup/curl and lift stumps out, but when warmed up, no guts, it's worthless.

For me, very hot days of 90F+ brings this loss of power on a little sooner than a colder like 50F day. A/C on quickens the power loss as well. The power loss is coming no matter what, I just think it's weird that additional heat build up kicks it in a tad sooner.

 

[LouNY]

Okay, I'll put mine out there (if it hasn't been clear enough).....

-> When I turn the (steering) wheel sharp, the RPM's decrease.
-> Going up a slight incline you get the drop, actual hills you can get down to creeping speeds at best.
-> Taller grass mowing, the same. Beginning of the mowing it will eat up anything in it's path.
-> Back-ho work, at first, plenty of bucket power to cup/curl and lift stumps out, but when warmed up, no guts, it's worthless.

For me, very hot days of 90F+ brings this loss of power on a little sooner than a colder like 50F day. A/C on quickens the power loss as well. The power loss is coming no matter what, I just think it's weird that additional heat build up kicks it in a tad sooner.

Until that tractor is put on a PTO dyno with AGCO software on a computer to monitor all the engine parameters it's going to be a guessing and parts changing game. With no satisfaction for anyone involved.

 

[567Chief]

I’ve just spent the last year taking my tractor back and forth to the shop for the exact issue you’ve described. I have a 1740M hydro with 450 hours on it. I primarily use it for a 72” woods finishing mower weekly and some grapple work.
I ended up getting really upset with the lack of service from the dealer I purchased the tractor from and called MF customer service. They were very responsive and had me take my tractor 90 miles from home to an amazing technician. Long story short, they found that the injectors were bad and replaced them. As I understand the new injectors have been re designed. FYI they are around $1200 each, if you’re out of warranty. The technician had to verify pressures at the injectors to confirm they were bad.
The technician explained that that tractor has so much bleeding off HP, from the Hydro to the A/C, there’s not much left at the PTO, around 25 HP. The slightest fuel issue will cause the symptoms I had. It seems to run like it did when I bought it. I am considering trading it in the next couple of months. I love the tractor but I’ve lost confidence in its longevity.

 

[TopSpeed1]

@567Chief Totally feel you on your lack of confidence. Maybe it will come back "IF" the replacement of Injectors was the issue. Trusted time in the seat may build this up.

On my last tractor (prior to this 1740M), I had a Case International and in 16 years of ownership from brand new, it saw the dealers shop only once, and that was for a radiator replacement. This MF however has been a different story, so I can TOTALLY relate to you and your confidence in your Massey 1740M. As yourself, I love the tractor when it's running correctly, but 35-40mins of this is really just a tease at best.

 

[JWR]

$1200 each for fuels injectors?