Will a JD310 run an irrigation pump?

[rScotty]

This is for a fire protection sprinklers I'm thinking of building here.

I'm wondering if there is a way to use our JD310 loader/backhoe to run an irrigation pump. I'd like to pull water from an creek up about 20 feet lift and then push 150 GPM at 90psi.

Lots of PTO pumps will do that or more. I wonder if there is a PTO kit for the JD310S series?

Our 310 has an optional remote single flow hydraulics for a concrete breaker or auger - both on the QA for the backhoe bucket. Lots of hydraulic power there, but both intended uses are intermittant.
Does anyone know if it is reasonable to that would run irrigation all day?

Thanks,
rScotty

 

[hosspuller]

no

 

[rScotty]

no

That's sad if true. Not having a PTO seems an oversight & I was hoping there was a way around that. The 310SG has lots of HP even at a fast idle.

Our old 32 hp John Deere spent years irrigating 40 acres of corn. It ran 24/7 during the summer - just needed oil, water, and fuel.

I could use it for this project and might yet. What is stopping me is the 530 is a gasser, and I'd rather go diesel for this fire protection setup.

rScotty

 

[4570Man]

I’d guess a rear pto is a no. What about a hookup on the front of the engine?

 

[hosspuller]

Fire protection needs to be reliable. Ever notice that electric fire pumps don't have overload protection? When it runs, the pump has to run even to destruction if it saves the building.

Trying to run a fire pump from aux hydraulic circuit isn't a good use.

A make shift fire pump power is a poor design.

 

[rScotty]

Ok. I talked with the local commercial equipment dealer today and he says he'd never heard of a 310 being used that way... but agrees that since our 310 has the standard auxiliary hydrualics, why not dangle a submergible hydraulically-driven trash pump from the backhoe boom? See if it works? He was concerned about long term, but mentioned that people ran those aux hydraulics all day long on various implements just by keeping an eye on the hyd. temperature.

Driving at half the 310's rated hydraulic flow would do what we want. Basically we are looking for 200 GPM @ 100 psi. That's pretty easy work for the 310, so the machine's hydraulic cooling should take care of it.

Now... who has info on hydraulic-driven trash pumps? I may move this question up to the hydraulics Forum.
rScotty

 

[WinterDeere]

I'm wondering if there is a way to use our JD310 loader/backhoe to run an irrigation pump. I'd like to pull water from an creek up about 20 feet lift and then push 150 GPM at 90psi.

Ignoring efficiency / heating, 20 feet = 8.66 psi, so you need to build roughly 100 psi pump differential to have 90 psi at the nozzle. Using HP = (GPM * PSI) / 1714, this is only 8.63 hp output from pump. I'm not sure what your pump efficiency is, but if you have a specific pump in mind, we can simply convert pressure to dynamic head (0.433 psi per foot), and work off that.

 

[rScotty]

Ignoring efficiency / heating, 20 feet = 8.66 psi, so you need to build roughly 100 psi pump differential to have 90 psi at the nozzle. Using HP = (GPM * PSI) / 1714, this is only 8.63 hp output from pump. I'm not sure what your pump efficiency is, but if you have a specific pump in mind, we can simply convert pressure to dynamic head (0.433 psi per foot), and work off that.

So it seems like it should work. Those numbers are easy work for the 310. Submerging the pump should help with heat. I'm trying to see if the local JD dealer has enough interest to push some equipment our way that we can use for testing.
The dealer does nothing small, so I've upped the flow to 100 psi at 200 GPM. Nice round numbers.

An unknown is just how the 310 is set up for continuous aux hyd duty.

Something interesting I just found out is that the 310 aux hyd has an adjustment via a knob on the valve stack. Output can be varied from 9 to 25 GPM in six steps. No, I don't know how it is varied. Probably diversion rather than choking.
So far I also do not have figures for aux psi, engine RPM, heat, or fuel consumption
But that's OK. Nobody has offered a pump, either.... but I bet they will.
rScotty

 

[WinterDeere]

It may work. The 8.63 hp number is accurate for required pump output, I just don't know the efficiency, which is what would be needed to calculate pump input power requirement.

However, you may have misinterpreted my comment about heat. Heat is the byproduct of efficiency, so if you know one you know the other. Putting the pump under water would indeed keep it cooler, but shouldn't have any primary effect on heat output or efficiency. In other words, water has a better ability than air to wick the heat away and keep temperature down, but it does not change the amount of heat produced = efficiency.

 

[rScotty]

It may work. The 8.63 hp number is accurate for required pump output, I just don't know the efficiency, which is what would be needed to calculate pump input power requirement.

However, you may have misinterpreted my comment about heat. Heat is the byproduct of efficiency, so if you know one you know the other. Putting the pump under water would indeed keep it cooler, but shouldn't have any primary effect on heat output or efficiency. In other words, water has a better ability than air to wick the heat away and keep temperature down, but it does not change the amount of heat produced = efficiency.

Efficiency is a chimera.
I think the concern here is with how much the pump doesn't heat the creek rather than how much it does.
rScotty

 

[WinterDeere]

Is this a hydraulically-driven pump or PTO? If hydraulic, what's the output capacity of the 310, in terms of pressure/flow curve?

 

[rScotty]

Is this a hydraulically-driven pump or PTO? If hydraulic, what's the output capacity of the 310, in terms of pressure/flow curve?

Plans are now to look into using a hydraulically-driven centrifugal pump.
Output of the JD 310 aux. hydraulics is 25 GPM at 2000psi - roughly equivalent to a 30 hp PTO.

That gives a 2.5x capacity reserve for the hydraulic motor which is driving the trash pump at 200 GPM and 100 psi. And that's not taking into account the reserve power available from the 90 hp primary diesel engine.

So there is plenty of driving power.
The 310 should be able to drive the hydraulic motor+trash pump at idle.
That's partly what makes it so attractive. Hopefully JD will see it that way, too.

 

[WinterDeere]

You're thinking along the right lines. Engine HP is mostly irrelevant here, the hydraulic system of the 310 is the limiting factor.

But as you noted, you've got 2.5x the required power available. So as long as pump efficiency is above 40%, and none of the hoses are undersized enough to eat into capacity, you've got more than sufficient power.

Note, reserve power from 310 hydraulics is actually 3.3x your original 150 gpm * 99 psi numbers... even better.

 

[zzvyb6]

if its that important and would be called upon to save my property, I'd trade it for a tractor that would do the jobs required, including loader, pump, pto generator, pto blower/broom. All for prep & recovery from a field/forest fire.

 

[WinterDeere]

It's also worth noting, if you're counting on this to save your property, I'm some random guy on the internet who knows basic physics. I'm hardly a pumps expert.

 

[4570Man]

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to get a readily available PTO pump and use it on your M59?

 

[WinterDeere]

Wouldn’t it be a lot easier to get a readily available PTO pump and use it on your M59?

I was thinking the same. I have PTO pumps for my sprayers, and while a heck of a lot smaller than the OP is talking, I'd think that'd be easier. Definitely way more HP available at the PTO than thru hydraulics.

Would priming them from a lake in an emergency be trouble? I'm not sure what the "dry lift" (not sure of term) would be, when you just drop a suction hose into a pond a few feet below the tractor.

 

[Engineer42]

Thompson Pumps used to have a hydraulic submersible 4" pump that ran off of a John Deere power unit. It worked very well. Can't remember the hp of the power unit, but I'm sure it was equal to or less than your 310SG, which is what, around 80-90 hp?

 

[rScotty]

if its that important and would be called upon to save my property, I'd trade it for a tractor that would do the jobs required, including loader, pump, pto generator, pto blower/broom. All for prep & recovery from a field/forest fire.

I was stuck on gear drive PTOs too..... until it occured to me that the ony difference was hydraulic PTO motors had flexible hoses instead of rotating driveshafts. Lots of machines have hydraulic PTOs instead of gear-driven ones. All of your skidsteers work that way for instance.

Thompson Pumps used to have a hydraulic submersible 4" pump that ran off of a John Deere power unit. It worked very well. Can't remember the hp of the power unit, but I'm sure it was equal to or less than your 310SG, which is what, around 80-90 hp?

Thanks! That's a good solid lead I was hoping for when we started. I'll definitely follow it up.

I know now that I should be looking for a submersible unit because when the pump works submersible it finally dawned on me that means it is not limited by the suction head.

Winter Deere, I found out the technical term for "dry lift" is "suction head".

Suction head was limiting my first sketched out designs using driveshaft PTOs and pumps sitting out of the water. Suction limits any non-submersible to about 20 feet above the water before the losses begin to put too much limit on the output. The ultimate theoretical limit closer to 30 feet I believe (sea level). That is when the suction pulls the water apart and all you get is vapor.

And I also have found that submersible pumps can handle trash much better because they don't need such tight clearances. That makes them less expensive.

Yes, the JD310SG is 93 turbo HP gross, about 80 hp net. Hydraulic PTO hp depends on the hydraulic motor, but is plenty. A bonus is it as a big hydraulic radiator.
rScotty

 

[sd455dan]

Is this a hydraulically-driven pump or PTO? If hydraulic, what's the output capacity of the 310, in terms of pressure/flow curve?

Lots of flow at rated speed of 38 gallons a minute

according to tractordata the main pump.

I was stuck on gear drive PTOs too..... until it occured to me that the ony difference was hydraulic PTO motors had flexible hoses instead of rotating driveshafts. Lots of machines have hydraulic PTOs instead of gear-driven ones. All of your skidsteers work that way for instance.



Thanks! That's a good solid lead I was hoping for when we started. I'll definitely follow it up. I know now that I should be looking for a submersible unit because when the pump works submersible it finally dawned on me that means it is not limited by the suction head.
Suction head was limiting my first designs using driveshaft PTOs and pumps sitting out of the water. Suction limits any non-submersible to about 20 feet above the water before the losses begin to put too much limit on the output.

And I also have found that submersible pumps can handle trash much better...and are way less expensive.

Yes, the JD310SG is 93 turbo HP gross, about 80 hp net. Hydraulic PTO hp depends on the hydraulic motor, but is plenty. A bonus is it as a big hydraulic radiator.
rScotty

Hydraulics
Type	open center
Capacity	21 gal 79.5 L
Pressure	2700 psi 186.2 bar
Total flow	38 gpm 143.8 lpm
Steering flow	6.4 gpm 24.2 lpm
Steering press.

After buying a pair of 30' hydraulic lines at just under $500 for my backhoe thumb, might want to price out what those lines to the submerged pump will $$ run as well.