JD 4600 w/460 loader bucket tilt problem

[Hound Dog]

I understand the unequal movement of the bucket cylinders but today the slower cylinder (left) totally extended out while the other one moves fine. Left the 50*F shop into 2*f temps and did some back dragging to clear a little snow. Then switched to bale spears, lifted a large bale, moved it closer to the gate, lifted it up high and dropped it. Trying to loosen up some ice on the bale. Then attempted to lift the bale again and the spears would barely move from the full down position. Tried full throttle but did little help. Took the bale spear off and the left cylinder went full extended to dump position while the right one would move okay. I was able to move the left cylinder by hand but it would return to extended position. Tried to attach bucket but no way to move that cylinder.
The dumping of the bucket has been slow to dump for a long time. Sometimes it will just stop but moving the lever in the cab would then dump okay.
Any ideas?

 

[beenthere]

Replace the bolt that keeps the right/left cylinders in correct timing. May be broken bolt.
Also, sounds like you are not using the regen dump feature properly.
Or re-set the quick hydraulic hose couplers. Sounds like one may not be properly connected.
Those are just three guesses I have to offer.

 

[Leejohn]

Sounds like the piston seals are bad on the left cyl.

 

[Hound Dog]

Sounds like the piston seals are bad on the left cyl.

I'm thinking the same thing as one shouldn't be able to move the cylinder by hand.
---
Later with the tractor off I pullled up the left side and the right cylinder moved in the opposite direction. When I moved the right cylinder, the left one moved in the opposite direction.

 

[oldnslo]

Hound dog
Are you stating the two curl cylinders are operating independent of each other? I. E. The left stays extended and right strokes in and out?

 

[Hound Dog]

More info. At first the bale spears would not return from 'full dump' except at full throttle but would then drop down on their own. I heard a loud 'crack' noise and that's where I believe the roll pin on the torsion bar between the two sides broke. Then the left cylinder went full 'down' or extended but the right cylinder would move with the lever. I did replace the roll pin with a bolt, started the tractor and again it won't pull the cylinders to the up position and I believe if I forced it at high throttle it will break that bolt.

 

[Hound Dog]

yes.

Hound dog
Are you stating the two curl cylinders are operating independent of each other? I. E. The left stays extended and right strokes in and out?

Yes, with the torsion bar roll pin broken.

 

[oldnslo]

Something is strange if one cylinder will operate and the other does not since they should be plumbed in parallel. Both rod ends connected to each other and both blind or cap ends connected to each other.

Some thing breaking bolts sounds like something is bent and binding or flow between the cylinders is blocked.

 

[Hound Dog]

Could it be in the valve assembly?

 

[kennyd]

Could it be in the valve assembly?

No.

I'm betting bad piston seals as mentioned above.

Rebuilt both cylinders, replace the broken shear pins, then tractor on

 

[oldnslo]

Would bad piston seals allow one cylinder to operate independent of the other one if connected in parallel?

Would bucket stay curled back with load on it with a bad piston seal?

 

[Harry in Ky]

I think it's time to disassemble the left cylinder. To me that's the obvious next step here. Something between the rod and the piston needs attention.

 

[Hound Dog]

I thought most of these problems took awhile and not suddenly as I had just dumped a large bale, but that could be the thing that popped a seal. I'm heading out to check for crimped lines somewhere, just in case. Is replacing cylinder seals something I can do or find someone that can do it? Special tools needed?
(no crimped lines found)

Found this video and contacted a friend that works in a parts store with a customer that rebuilds cylinders. I think I'll go that way.

 

[Hound Dog]

I think it's time to disassemble the left cylinder. To me that's the obvious next step here. Something between the rod and the piston needs attention.

I removed both cylinders. I believe the left cylinder shaft has become loose from the piston. I have a neighbor that used to work for JD and he agreed to replace the seals. I hope the threaded end of the shaft is still good.
And of course, my cylinder is different from the one in the how-to YouTube video but I found the part number and diagram for my cylinder.

 

[beenthere]

This link to jd parts fit with your cylinder ?

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/80717/referrer/navigation/pgId/14390972

See that there is a seal kit available for repair. The ring (wire lock) key #11 may present a challenge removing it. Have heard that anyway.

 

[Hound Dog]

Yup, that's the cylinder and that's why I'm having someone else do it. Couldn't find a U-tube video showing that cylinder either.

 

[Harry in Ky]

You don't know the lock ring is a problem unless you try. If you can get it apart with the barrel still in place you can save some time and $$ doing it yourself. It's not that hard. Look in the hole on side for the end of the lock ring. If it's right there and you can move it a little by turning the head assembly, then why not try and lift it out, roll the head until the wire comes free and go from there?

 

[Hound Dog]

Not sure what you mean. I do know the shaft of the problem cylinder won't go into the cylinder as far as the other one after they both were removed..
I've rebuilt motorcycle forks and watched a u-tube video on rebuilding these cylinders and I know my limits so will have someone else to do these. I really do appreciate all the help from these forums and they are a wealth of information.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Again, if you can turn the cylinder head (some call it a gland) with a pipe wrench or large channel locks, you should see the lock ring move in the small window. USUALLY the end of the ring is right in the window, but not always. Once the end is in view, reach in with a pick or some small sharp tool and raise the end up so turning the head causes the end to come out of the window. Then continue turning in that direction. This should bring the entire ring out and allow you to remove it. Once done the head, rod, piston, and all should be free to come out of the barrel. Sometimes it takes a few good slams but it should all come out. Some sort of problem exists between the rod end and the piston, obviously, but it still has to come apart to find out just what it is.

Typically I do this without removing the barrel from the implement. Makes it much more stable and easier to work with. Just remove the hoses so they don't restrict movement of the internal parts.

 

[beenthere]

There are several YouTube videos showing JD cylinder repair, but I failed to find one I've viewed before that shows the lock ring needing to be removed.
This one linked here is one from a JD 430 FEL and may be close to what the OP has to work with.

I watched several videos that were not well done, and skipped important steps. All seemed to mention the "tool" that is a plastic ring in the kit used to fill the groove of the lock ring and provide a "ramp" to remove the rod.
Good luck.
Hope you take pics and report how the job goes for you. Appears this wire lock is on the earlier 460 FEL under s/n 03117. After that s/n there is a different setup.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/80717/referrer/navigation/pgId/14519694