Subaru Automobiles

[MossRoad]

 

[Sigarms]

One of the biggest inside jokes in the HVAC industry is consumer reports and when they "rate" HVAC equipment per reliability.

Honestly, I've never put much faith at all in any reliability or quality "reports".

There is a phrase either I came up with or quoted (can't find it online), "percieved reliabilty vs actual reliability" (perhaps a spin off of interpreting data). I think some brands also rely on their image more than actual facts.

Long story, while ago (perhaps around 2016), took my 1998 toyota avalon up to Pa by myself for some reson (at least to visit my father back then). Car starting driving "weird" after 8 hours of driving with 45 minutes to go to my dads house. Keep in mind, the car had about 320k on it at the time. I took it to my "old local mechanic" around my dads place the next morning (he still remembered me about 20 years later LOL). I really do trust this guy, never left me hanging and always does what he says he's going to to when I lived in the area. Talking about cars in general and how happy I was with the Avalon overall (bought it at a good price with only 72K on it) he said something that floored me. He told me he saw a lot of stupidity from Toyota in their engineering process on parts on models after 2004 or 2005 that can cause a lof of issues, and he wouldn't buy one himself now. Perhaps Toyota has changed things since then, but here is a guy who works on cars 24/7, can pretty much fix anything (if it's worth fixing) and he was "bad mouthing" Toyota.

All that said, perhaps there is a person here who bought a brand new 2006 Toyota, still has it and NEVER has had a problem with the car other than average maintence.

No different than "chevy vs ford" guys and even orange vs green tractors.

I used to drive used VW's in my youth, my choice of car. That worked fine up North. Once I moved down south, I honestly swore off VW's to the local support I could find when I needed it (even through dealers). My local VW dealer up north was heads and shoulder's better than the local dealers I could find in NC. Point being, product support through the people selling the product also plays a role "quality".

Look at Kia. Long time ago they seemed to be a cheap joke. My supervisor just bought a brand new Kia Telluride (sp?) at a pretty IMO for his family. Go figure.

End of the day, the biggest question is if a product absolutely sucks and is garbage, exactly how do they stay in business selling a horrible product?

 

[Hay Dude]

One of the biggest inside jokes in the HVAC industry is consumer reports and when they "rate" HVAC equipment per reliability.

Honestly, I've never put much faith at all in any reliability or quality "reports".

There is a phrase either I came up with or quoted (can't find it online), "percieved reliabilty vs actual reliability" (perhaps a spin off of interpreting data). I think some brands also rely on their image more than actual facts.

Long story, while ago (perhaps around 2016), took my 1998 toyota avalon up to Pa by myself for some reson (at least to visit my father back then). Car starting driving "weird" after 8 hours of driving with 45 minutes to go to my dads house. Keep in mind, the car had about 320k on it at the time. I took it to my "old local mechanic" around my dads place the next morning (he still remembered me about 20 years later LOL). I really do trust this guy, never left me hanging and always does what he says he's going to to when I lived in the area. Talking about cars in general and how happy I was with the Avalon overall (bought it at a good price with only 72K on it) he said something that floored me. He told me he saw a lot of stupidity from Toyota in their engineering process on parts on models after 2004 or 2005 that can cause a lof of issues, and he wouldn't buy one himself now. Perhaps Toyota has changed things since then, but here is a guy who works on cars 24/7, can pretty much fix anything (if it's worth fixing) and he was "bad mouthing" Toyota.

All that said, perhaps there is a person here who bought a brand new 2006 Toyota, still has it and NEVER has had a problem with the car other than average maintence.

No different than "chevy vs ford" guys and even orange vs green tractors.

I used to drive used VW's in my youth, my choice of car. That worked fine up North. Once I moved down south, I honestly swore off VW's to the local support I could find when I needed it (even through dealers). My local VW dealer up north was heads and shoulder's better than the local dealers I could find in NC. Point being, product support through the people selling the product also plays a role "quality".

Look at Kia. Long time ago they seemed to be a cheap joke. My supervisor just bought a brand new Kia Telluride (sp?) at a pretty IMO for his family. Go figure.

End of the day, the biggest question is if a product absolutely sucks and is garbage, exactly how do they stay in business selling a horrible product?

Cheap price.

 

[Sigarms]

Cheap price.

I don't disagree with you at all.

The question becomes how do you determine what is a cheap price for the product in it's market vs the competition?

Even with cars, there are a lot of options that add to the price vs a base model.

I always thought Kia's were "cheap". Couple years ago went to a Kia dealer lot just to check out pricing, and almost fell over dead LOL

End of the day, owning any vehicle, I believe the reality is you're going to have a whopper of a service bill after so many miles even with performing standard maintence like clockwork.

For some reason, at in the the HVAC industry, sometimes people associate the warranty with the quality, which I've found isn't true.

 

[jmc]

He told me he saw a lot of stupidity from Toyota in their engineering process on parts on models after 2004 or 2005 that can cause a lof of issues, and he wouldn't buy one himself now.

IIRC, at some point back then Toyota was breathing down the back of GM as the largest auto company in the world. Word was that in Toyota's haste to overtake GM for the bragging rights, they made some mistakes. They might have even fessed up to it later, but I might have dreamed that part...

 

[Hay Dude]

IIRC, at some point back then Toyota was breathing down the back of GM as the largest auto company in the world. Word was that in Toyota's haste to overtake GM for the bragging rights, they made some mistakes. They might have even fessed up to it later, but I might have dreamed that part...

Toyota made a big gamble on hybrid vehicles. They might just win on that gamble.

 

[Torvy]

All that said, perhaps there is a person here who bought a brand new 2006 Toyota, still has it and NEVER has had a problem with the car other than average maintence.

First Toyota wa a '92 Camry we bought with about 15k on it. Drove it for 20 years or so. We bought a 2005 Prius and I drove it for a few years. Not a lick of trouble except when some idiot cut me off and I avoided her, but hit a tree. Traded it for a '13 Camry Hybrid that my oldest still drives. We've owned 2 Siennas (new '98 and used '08). Had a new 2020 Prius Prime we traded for our '17 Tundra. Also own an '06 Matrix that our youngest drives. Parents also bought a Camry(s) and a Prius after seeing and riding in ours. Older daughter bought her own '22 Camry Hybrid.

Among all of those, the only mechanical or cosmetic issues on any of them has been the exterior door handles on the Matrix. Of course, the Matrix was a joint venture with GM (Vibe) built in Fremont.

Even with all of my anecdotal evidence, I still think you cannot look just at examples, even those from a mechanic, and make assumptions. The larger data set that CR uses gives you a much better indication of your odds of reliable service.

 

[Sigarms]

The larger data set that CR uses gives you a much better indication of your odds of reliable service.

If by CR you mean Consumer Reports, I can tell you for a fact that the information they provide is very unreliable at least when it comes to heating and air conditioning equipment.

For example and easy to understand, years ago they had Rheem ranked at the top in one category and Ruud ranked at the very bottom in the same catagory (I believe you have a Ruud now in your own new home). Here is the thing, Rheem and Ruud are the EXACT same equipment, the only thing that is different is the name badge, and when you get to a higher cost equipment with more "features and benifits", Rheem starts their model with a "R" and Ruud starts their model with a "U". SAME EQUIPMENT DOWN TO THE SCREW (at least on the heat pump side).

I know for a fact that some HVAC manufacturers have tried going directly to consumer reports to find out exactly how they gather their information, and they all have been told to pound sound by consumer reports.

If this is how Consumer Reports handles HVAC equipment, I honestly don't see them doing anything different with vehicles.

When you have third party people making money by providing "statistics" on products sold, beware.

 

[California]

The larger data set that CR uses gives you a much better indication of your odds of reliable service.

... Rheem starts their model with a "R" and Ruud starts their model with a "U". SAME EQUIPMENT DOWN TO THE SCREW (at least on the heat pump side)....If this is how Consumer Reports handles HVAC equipment, I honestly don't see them doing anything different with vehicles.
When you have third party people making money by providing "statistics" on products sold, beware.

Consumer Reports sometimes makes boneheaded choices but overall they're a better source of what the customer will experience compared to any other source, in many categories. Sounds like that HVAC difference comes down to the quality of the installer, not the hardware.

My favorite example of this boneheadedness is I've never seen them review anything from Harbor Freight.

CR doesn't exist to make money for its owners. Its a non-profit that was started by some dreamers who thought reviews serving the customer and free of bias, were badly needed. This is still their guiding principle. Maybe think of them as a left-over example of what the idealists of the 1930's (and later, the Whole Earth Catalogue founders) expected to become mainstream - before we learned that human nature just doesn't work how those idealists expected. I'm sure CU pays good salaries but it isn't a profit-motivated enterprise. Recognize their perspective to understand their reviews!

I agree with Torvy, a survey of a broad number of existing customers using valid statistical methods, is likely the best information available for a potential customer in many categories.

 

[Torvy]

Sig, I highly respect your opinion, especially on HVAC related things. I respectfully disagree on this point. I just went to the CR site. Rudd and Rheem both got a 3/5 for both Reliability and Customer Satisfaction.

CR doesn't 'rate' AC units because of too many variables (size of home, climate, installation, etc.) In fact, similar to your own views, this is a quote from their site. "...finding a trustworthy contractor to install and service the air conditioning system matters the most."