I love electric vehicles. But increasingly I feel duped

[tacticalturnip]

This is exactly what I was meaning by progress. Could you imagine applying for that job?
Job requirements: 18th century seafaring, parrot, peg leg. Those predisposed to scurvy or rickets will not be considered.

My God, it's real...

Now they're just ****ing with us.

 

[Torvy]

I suppose they could save energy by banning all electric devices and make all 'power' devices wind or water driven. 18th century may be a bit too new. Some steam experiments go back as far as the 1st (at least according to wiki, which is always right).

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

So strange to me EV owners talk about how much money they're saving (mpgeqv or whatever it's called) while never talking about the fact that it's $10,000+++ higher cost than an inexpensive ice car.
If I can but a new 10yr/100K warranty car for $20K, it gets me to the store & back...or a vacation and every 350 miles I put $30 gas in it I'm happy.
"Yes, but I can have solar panels installed". What does THAT cost?
That's the equivalent of my $20 coffee pot makes me a cup of coffee every morning and costs $30/year to operate. "Yes but my $300 coffee pot has a digital display, timer and alerts me when ready and only costs $10/year to operate so I'm saving money".
To each his-her-their own (???!).

 

[JasperFrank]

A few years or so ago, wife and i were looking for a new car for her. The 1999 Honda Civic was 270,000 miles and started to nickle/dime and burn oil. Then was totaled, while parked, by some idiot dumpster driver/operator. I had not been in a show room for 20 years. And I was shocked at how stupid modern cars had become. We ended up with a new Hyundai Accent for 14k. It had the least added BS. But I hate the car. It has very little rear view. We took the rear head sets out just to see anything. The high way steering on it is way too tricky at 75 mph and the front windscreen is so low my wife often has to duck to see if a traffic light has changed. And for some reason you can't fit, what I would think are normal things to get in a hatch back. Anything important we use the '93 Festiva. And this isn't a quality car, but at least it is a well designed, useful car. The two are separated by 24 years. 1/4 of a century of car development. They get the same mileage, have near the same acceleration, and braking distances.

 

[3930dave]

A few years or so ago, wife and i were looking for a new car for her. The 1999 Honda Civic was 270,000 miles and started to nickle/dime and burn oil. Then was totaled, while parked, by some idiot dumpster driver/operator. I had not been in a show room for 20 years. And I was shocked at how stupid modern cars had become. We ended up with a new Hyundai Accent for 14k. It had the least added BS. But I hate the car. It has very little rear view. We took the rear head sets out just to see anything. The high way steering on it is way too tricky at 75 mph and the front windscreen is so low my wife often has to duck to see if a traffic light has changed. And for some reason you can't fit, what I would think are normal things to get in a hatch back. Anything important we use the '93 Festiva. And this isn't a quality car, but at least it is a well designed, useful car. The two are separated by 24 years. 1/4 of a century of car development. They get the same mileage, have near the same acceleration, and braking distances.

About 5 years ago, I dropped by to see my buddy, working late @ his 8 bay shop that he owned. He had me pull a car out of the shop, that he just finished certifying.

Believe it or not (up here), it was a K Car, station wagon. An old tyme Chrysler guy had kept it, just went for groceries with it, then drove it to Florida and stayed every Winter, where it just hauled groceries..... that is how it survived Salt Land here.

Your post reminded me of the conversation my buddy and I had that night, about the greenhouse on that olde K. Fantastic sight lines everywhere.

Many modern vehicles have terrible sight-lines; I really do hate them. At the time of that ^ conversation, a lady concerned about her son playing in the street they lived on managed to back over (and kill) her son while moving their modern SUV out of their driveway, so he could play in it. That fatality happened next-town over from me.

Yeah, progress......

Rgds, D.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

About 5 years ago, I dropped by to see my buddy, working late @ his 8 bay shop that he owned. He had me pull a car out of the shop, that he just finished certifying.

Believe it or not (up here), it was a K Car, station wagon. An old tyme Chrysler guy had kept it, just went for groceries with it, then drove it to Florida and stayed every Winter, where it just hauled groceries..... that is how it survived Salt Land here.

Your post reminded me of the conversation my buddy and I had that night, about the greenhouse on that olde K. Fantastic sight lines everywhere.

Many modern vehicles have terrible sight-lines; I really do hate them. At the time of that ^ conversation, a lady concerned about her son playing in the street they lived on managed to back over (and kill) her son while moving their modern SUV out of their driveway, so he could play in it. That fatality happened next-town over from me.

Yeah, progress......

Rgds, D.

I have two trucks that I drive. One is 20 years old the other is 27 years old. I have repaired both and turned them into reliable drivers that I would not hesitate to drive anywhere. My wife smashed her truck and being the non controlling loving husband I am she did her own shopping for a new vehicle. She came home with a freaking Volkswagen Jetta. Low profile tires that get stuck in 1/4 inch of snow, special tools needed to do anything. Now I'm in the market for a older truck for her, something like a 4x4 I6 is what I'm thinking. That project will have to wait for the Jetta to be paid off though.

 

[NoTrespassing]

About 5 years ago, I dropped by to see my buddy, working late @ his 8 bay shop that he owned. He had me pull a car out of the shop, that he just finished certifying.

Believe it or not (up here), it was a K Car, station wagon. An old tyme Chrysler guy had kept it, just went for groceries with it, then drove it to Florida and stayed every Winter, where it just hauled groceries..... that is how it survived Salt Land here.

Your post reminded me of the conversation my buddy and I had that night, about the greenhouse on that olde K. Fantastic sight lines everywhere.

Many modern vehicles have terrible sight-lines; I really do hate them. At the time of that ^ conversation, a lady concerned about her son playing in the street they lived on managed to back over (and kill) her son while moving their modern SUV out of their driveway, so he could play in it. That fatality happened next-town over from me.

Yeah, progress......

Rgds, D.

Aren't the terrible sight lines because of more stringent rollover regulations? Fix one problem and create 2 more.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

I have two trucks that I drive. One is 20 years old the other is 27 years old. I have repaired both and turned them into reliable drivers that I would not hesitate to drive anywhere. My wife smashed her truck and being the non controlling loving husband I am she did her own shopping for a new vehicle. She came home with a freaking Volkswagen Jetta. Low profile tires that get stuck in 1/4 inch of snow, special tools needed to do anything. Now I'm in the market for a older truck for her, something like a 4x4 I6 is what I'm thinking. That project will have to wait for the Jetta to be paid off though.

I have an F150 4x4 '93 farm truck that's been fantastic. 300 six, 4 speed.

 

[bnold]

I'm glad your battery car is working for you. There are plenty of people that they do work great for. For others they are useless.

Both work well for me.
No desire for either to be outlawed.
Just correcting misinformation.

 

[bnold]

So strange to me EV owners talk about how much money they're saving (mpgeqv or whatever it's called) while never talking about the fact that it's $10,000+++ higher cost than an inexpensive ice car.
If I can but a new 10yr/100K warranty car for $20K, it gets me to the store & back...or a vacation and every 350 miles I put $30 gas in it I'm happy.
"Yes, but I can have solar panels installed". What does THAT cost?

Initial premise is flawed.
There is no $20k car that I’d own and drive.

For folks that are comparing their cost to a $20k ice car that they would be happy with, I’d highly encourage them to go that route.

I’d expect low cost BEV imports to become a real player within 10yrs, but that isn’t here yet. Something small, incredibly efficient, ice like performance and half the battery size with 150miles of usable range would satisfy the majority of city dwellers usage.

Solar ~5-6yr ROI here @$2/W installed.

So far, not forced to buy one… hope that doesn’t change. For many, they work quite well.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

Initial premise is flawed.
There is no $20k car that I’d own and drive.

For folks that are comparing their cost to a $20k ice car that they would be happy with, I’d highly encourage them to go that route.

I’d expect low cost BEV imports to become a real player within 10yrs, but that isn’t here yet. Something small, incredibly efficient, ice like performance and half the battery size with 150miles of usable range would satisfy the majority of city dwellers usage.

Solar ~5-6yr ROI here @$2/W installed.

So far, not forced to buy one… hope that doesn’t change. For many, they work quite well.

Solar ROI does not figure anything in but the initial investment. I have yet to find a complex system that needs zero investment over time. Also ROI is always figured into a on grid system. You can times the ROI by two or more if you want a actual off grid system. Why would you want a on grid solar system except to virtue signal about your "carbon footprint"?
Also plenty of people drive vehicles that cost way less than 20k and are happy with them. Give me 20K to sink into a vehicle and see what happens.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Maybe we'll get this gut bucket!
Toronto dealership so $17,500 with exchange rate. The 2014 Accent hatch now with 61k miles warranty is soon over...time to trade.
Ok, 600 miles one way so I'd have to factor in motel & gas.

 

[3930dave]

Aren't the terrible sight lines because of more stringent rollover regulations? Fix one problem and create 2 more.

Could be.... how much it is that, versus Styling..... don't have the FEA software at my disposal to assess.

Somehow, Volvo managed great sight-lines, and a strong structure, on the ancient high mileage 240 wagon I still own.

"A" pillars on modern vehicles..... quick glance at a street corner...... I believe they are a factor in pedestrians getting hit, as the blind-spot they create can be ridiculous.

Rgds, D.

 

[3930dave]

Solar ROI does not figure anything in but the initial investment. I have yet to find a complex system that needs zero investment over time. Also ROI is always figured into a on grid system. You can times the ROI by two or more if you want a actual off grid system. Why would you want a on grid solar system except to virtue signal about your "carbon footprint"?
Also plenty of people drive vehicles that cost way less than 20k and are happy with them. Give me 20K to sink into a vehicle and see what happens.

It's the elimination of choice, re. low-cost vehicles, that hits the peasants the hardest.

I've seen very wealthy people drive low cost (or even beater) vehicles by choice too.... but it's a peasant like me that is running out of choices.

Given the failure rate of high-end complex expensive vehicles, nobody (including me, even if you gave it to me for free) wants to own them past warranty.

I can chose an older, simpler, peasant-class vehicle, buy it for say $10k, put $1 or $2k into repairs, and likely have a reliable vehicle that I could drive coast-coast (something I've done) non-stop, if I so choose. Once ICE is gone, I don't see that type of ground transport being an option for most of us.....

Well, we don't want these pesky peasants running about anytime/where they want anyway......

Rgds, D.

 

[bnold]

Solar ROI does not figure anything in but the initial investment. I have yet to find a complex system that needs zero investment over time. Also ROI is always figured into a on grid system. You can times the ROI by two or more if you want a actual off grid system. Why would you want a on grid solar system except to virtue signal about your "carbon footprint"?
Also plenty of people drive vehicles that cost way less than 20k and are happy with them. Give me 20K to sink into a vehicle and see what happens.

Didn’t say anything wrong with folks paying $20k for a new vehicle. Actually, the contrary. But the premise of a $20k new vehicle existing so it automatically means folks will class down to buy it and therefore EVs don’t save money compared to their equivalent ICE is a silly argument.

No idea where you are going on your virtue signaling path. Can pitch that to someone who cares.

Simple ROI yes.
Maintenance at some point in the far off future, sure. (Aside from wiping them down once a year). When? 10 years? 15? 20? 30?
The math doesn’t lie. My personal system produced (saved) over $3,000 its first operational year. Is what it is.

Go off grid if you like. They have an ROI of never if you have grid available.

 

[Deleted member 371759]

Didn’t say anything wrong with folks paying $20k for a new vehicle. Actually, the contrary. But the premise of a $20k new vehicle existing so it automatically means folks will class down to buy it and therefore EVs don’t save money compared to their equivalent ICE is a silly argument.

No idea where you are going on your virtue signaling path. Can pitch that to someone who cares.

Simple ROI yes.
Maintenance at some point in the far off future, sure. (Aside from wiping them down once a year). When? 10 years? 15? 20? 30?
The math doesn’t lie. My personal system produced (saved) over $3,000 its first operational year. Is what it is.

Go off grid if you like. They have an ROI of never if you have grid available.

Like I said previously, I'm happy things are working for you. By what I can deduct we live two dramatically different lives.

 

[Fixastuff]

Wait till someone realizes they can compare the cost of a EV vs riding a bicycle, then they'll really prove how much money is wasted when buying an EV. Probably shut the whole industry down. Lol.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Wait till someone realizes they can compare the cost of a EV vs riding a bicycle, then they'll really prove how much money is wasted when buying an EV. Probably shut the whole industry down. Lol.

Apples and pocketbooks(?!!?)

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Like I said previously, I'm happy things are working for you. By what I can deduct we live two dramatically different lives.

Exactly. The idea of "class up, class down"...what does it mean? If an EV owner is offended, then as an ice owner I find EVs offensive as well as owners reasoning. There is an ignore button anyone can push to weed out those who don't agree...ignore until only EV proponents are left for enjoyment!

 

[3930dave]

Exactly. The idea of "class up, class down"...what does it mean? If an EV owner is offended, then as an ice owner I find EVs offensive as well as owners reasoning. There is an ignore button anyone can push to weed out those who don't agree...ignore until only EV proponents are left for enjoyment!

Class down..... there goes the neighbourhood..... (Bear with me on this one.....)

Interesting how that ^ filter works.....

Different thread on here, but similar "atmosphere" being referenced...... somebody mentioned an example: Older guy, kept a mechanically very sound RV on the road, but it looked a little tired, so "some" people looked down on it/him.

The line was something like "Funny thing - he could buy Winnebago, if he wanted to." Went on to distinguish "No, not A Winnebago, I'm talking about the entire company".

Filters..... can work in more than one direction, and not the way many would think of.....

"Special ed Authoritarianism" still has me laughing.... it's an element of this too, puts a Funny Face on an otherwise rather dark topic that many of us peasants are/will have to struggle with.....

Rgds, D.