Dual element filtration. How much dust gets past? Yup…

[SDT]

Uno, on the u48 the inner filter is just a thin metal screen. I had never pulled it and was shocked. Most inners are a thick fabric. This thing is a joke. Look at it, it doesnt seem like any kind of life saver.
View attachment 783962

Perfectly adequate for intended purpose.

For decades, IC engines had little or no intake filtration of any kind.

 

[SDT]

1964 Ford truck had an oil bath. I remember my father "changing the oil" in the bath once. The oil bath must have worked, the oil was dark black when he replaced it.

Oil bath air filters are about as good as intake filters get but they are expensive, bulky, heavy and routine maintenance is more time consuming than simply swaping a paper element.

The automotive industry used oil bath air filters until the late 50s, 58 for GM. Changeover to paper filters was made in order to save cost.

 

[ovrszd]

An old timer told me oil is the blood, the air is the oxygen and diesel is the food.

Truth.

 

[LouNY]

Interesting reading from several points of view.
My take on the oil bath air cleaners, they worked in the smaller low speed engines they were built for. They had to be designed for the airflow they would see, to much airflow would carry oil over and into the engine, to low an air flow the dust particles could make the turn and not get trapped in the oil and oil would not be drawn up into the steel wool to help trap particles.
Also those engines did not have the life span as todays engines and often were built with ease of in frame over hauls in mind.

As far as current air filter maintenance, I took some photos out of a New Holland operators manual;
it also states not to service untill the indicator lights up or every 600 hrs.
and has 3 ways to clean the outer filter.

 

[ovrszd]

The "important note" on the first page tells me they don't recommend frequent cleaning for filter longevity reasons. I believe that.

A later comment about placing the air nozzle inside the filter, but 6" from the element to blow outward is going to be very hard to do.

 

[big bubba]

The "important note" on the first page tells me they don't recommend frequent cleaning for filter longevity reasons. I believe that.

A later comment about placing the air nozzle inside the filter, but 6" from the element to blow outward is going to be very hard to do.

in to out method works great with a leaf blower, not high pressure air nozzle. HVLP works best, & agree to only occasionall clean. thankfully, my grill is excellent at preventing most excess debris (sedge bloom, etc) into entering the intake area. this is one of the 1st things i noticed in a full size "utility" M series vs compact & sub tractor. regards

 

[Hersheyfarm]

Well, I’m starting to rethink filter cleaning so often. I always assumed the filter minder was “uh oh, you messed up and got to dirty” kinda monitor. But dang, a filter on a ctl or skid steer can get sooo caked with dust.

FYI, i bought all new filters for my 2 kubotas today-$175..reason being is i saw the fine light dust in the intakes. I still think ultra small micron stuff will always penetrate though. Might be over thinking this as usual.

 

[ovrszd]

Well, I’m starting to rethink filter cleaning so often. I always assumed the filter minder was “uh oh, you messed up and got to dirty” kinda monitor. But dang, a filter on a ctl or skid steer can get sooo caked with dust.

FYI, i bought all new filters for my 2 kubotas today-$175..reason being is i saw the fine light dust in the intakes. I still think ultra small micron stuff will always penetrate though. Might be over thinking this as usual.

I've never saw a filter reminder "maxed out". I can only imagine how dirty the filter must be to do that.

I also have reservations about that. So,,,, most of the filter element, maybe 70-80% has to be clogged to trigger such a reaction from the reminder. Doesn't that mean that now the engine's air has to pass thru 20-30% of the filter element? At what velocity?

 

[big bubba]

Well, I’m starting to rethink filter cleaning so often. I always assumed the filter minder was “uh oh, you messed up and got to dirty” kinda monitor. But dang, a filter on a ctl or skid steer can get sooo caked with dust.

FYI, i bought all new filters for my 2 kubotas today-$175..reason being is i saw the fine light dust in the intakes. I still think ultra small micron stuff will always penetrate though. Might be over thinking this as usual.

nothing wrong with over thinking on that. aside from mechanical cond, engine oil & fuel/air filtration are paramount for a diesel. filtration is wise thinking & inexpensive for diesel engine longevity. regards

 

[dirttoys]

Well, I’m starting to rethink filter cleaning so often. I always assumed the filter minder was “uh oh, you messed up and got to dirty” kinda monitor. But dang, a filter on a ctl or skid steer can get sooo caked with dust.

FYI, i bought all new filters for my 2 kubotas today-$175..reason being is i saw the fine light dust in the intakes. I still think ultra small micron stuff will always penetrate though. Might be over thinking this as usual.

It is easy to get in a hole and not realize how deep you are. Do filters remove slightly more material when dirty, maybe, certainly can see the logic.......

Will you hurt anything by replacing air filters? Good grief no.............

Best,

ed

 

[Snobdds]

This may seem obvious, but it needs to be said...

A filter gets better at filtering the dirtier it gets. The dirtier it gets, the less flow it has. So there is always a balance to good filtration at the sacrifice of flow. What is more important for the application at hand will dictate what direction to go.

Use this information as you see fit...and thanks for coming to my ted talk.

 

[pmsmechanic]

A filter gets better at filtering the dirtier it gets. The dirtier it gets, the less flow it has. So there is always a balance to good filtration at the sacrifice of flow. What is more important for the application at hand will dictate what direction to go.

Keep in mind that most filtration systems are designed with lots of extra capacity for this very reason.

 

[ovrszd]

Keep in mind that most filtration systems are designed with lots of extra capacity for this very reason.

A JD tech told me a story regarding a township near me. They called for a tech because their machine had lost significant HP. The tech found the breather cannister so full of dirt he could barely pull the filter out. The secondary filter was clogged as well. The engine had caused enough vacuum to breach the primary filter.

Again, running a partially clogged filter causes increased velocity at the outer cleats. I see no benefit or logic to going that far.

 

[Jerry/MT]

Most people seem to think that they are doing their engines a favor by keeping the filter clean. A service manager once told me that the dirtier the filter the cleaner the air going into the engine. It makes sense when you think about it. So why would you give your engine the dirtiest air possible by cleaning the filter?

Because a clogged air filter reduces intake airflow which reduces power output.

 

[pmsmechanic]

Because a clogged air filter reduces intake airflow which reduces power output.

To me this argument doesn't hold water. The filter is already designed to compensate for being partially plugged. IE it has extra capacity. Also by far the majority of tractors on TBN are rarely used at full power. Mine sees full power in spring when I'm rototilling gardens. The rest of the year is pretty easy going.

 

[Smokeydog]

Have to blowout the primary filter several times a year mowing and bush hogging. Same for the radiators. Inner filter gets gently soapy washed and dried once in spring.

Had M5030 whose power steering would get hard every 5-6 years. Fine stainless steel filter screen looked clean till sprayed with brake cleaner to remove fine black residue and fixed the problem. Reason I wash the fine screen filters. Detailed in some manuals too.

 

[Jerry/MT]

To me this argument doesn't hold water. The filter is already designed to compensate for being partially plugged. IE it has extra capacity. Also by far the majority of tractors on TBN are rarely used at full power. Mine sees full power in spring when I'm rototilling gardens. The rest of the year is pretty easy going.

Per you statement:
"Most people seem to think that they are doing their engines a favor by keeping the filter clean. A service manager once told me that the dirtier the filter the cleaner the air going into the engine. It makes sense when you think about it. So why would you give your engine the dirtiest air possible by cleaning the filter?"

So you believe the engine is designed to run with dirty filters? If that were the case, why would the manufacturers ever require a filter change per your logic?

Two things happen as the filter clogs; the air flow at any given rpm is reduced and the peak temperature in the cylinder rises because the fuel/air ratio increases. Small reductions in air flow due to partial blocking of the air filter will not provide NOTICABLE reductions in power. None the less, power is reduced. The requirement to change air filters per the manufacturer's recommendation will allow the engine to perform very near to its design intent. Any more restriction and the power loss is deemed unacceptable.

If you want to believe that operating with heavy dust accumulation in the air filter is some how a good thing, well it's your tractor and you can do what you want.

 

[ruffdog]

I have always thought that one of these filter blasters would be quick and easy to use.

 

[jjeff]

I have always thought that one of these filter blasters would be quick and easy to use.

For me anyway I'd be concerned I'd damage the filter media or it will eventually get so worn down it's not going to do much in terms of filtration, I saw something like that before its no longer available. Something like it can be found on Amazon I believe if I follow manufacturers specs it's not that costly of insurance and piece of mind to just replace them. If for some reason I feel the need to clean off a filter I usually lightly tap a corner on the work bench.

 

[pmsmechanic]

If you want to believe that operating with heavy dust accumulation in the air filter is some how a good thing, well it's your tractor and you can do what you want.

I don't recall saying anything abut a heavy dust accumulation ever. That's a totally different conversation as far as I'm concerned. Your missing my point and that's ok.