geothermal questions and possible DIY

   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #81  
Another update for everyone.

Im gonna have some decisions to make when it comes time. Weather the extra $3500 to have them do it or not is the big dilemma right now.
Does the extra $3500 buy you any better warranty or piece of mind?? If there is an issue, can you handle it or are you going to have to call somebody?
I know for me, I could install it but I don't have the equipment or knowledge to troubleshoot if there are issues. There is a point were it is better for me to just pay the extra and know that if there are any issues... help is on the way with a phone call. Especially when I am out of town 15 days out of the month and if there are issues the wife has somebody to call.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #82  
Do you have the time and experience? I feel I can do just about anything given the time.

I'll give an example. I rebuilt a transmission several years ago for a 70 Challenger. Pulling, putting it back in and rebuilding it took 6 weeks. I wasn't working on it for six weeks straight but I'd need a special tool, run into a problem etc. I did one for a friend a few months later and it took 2 days. My guess is this would be what your geo install would be. It would take longer than it sounds like it should but after that you would be good at it.

For my install, including the underground lines it took about a week total. I'm sure it would have taken me a lot longer. If you have the time, ability and skills, go for it.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY
  • Thread Starter
#83  
An update to the most recent quote. I got actual numbers now as I have it in front of me.

The geo was a Bryant 2-stage puron with desuperheater. And it is $16,977. Add $600 for credit.

The air to air is a carrier 4-ton single stage. And $8700

Dodgeman: I have the time, knowledge, skill, and tools to do every part of the geo myself. But lack the experience. Knowing how the order in which to do things, knowing what is good stuff and what to avoid, sizing plumbing and manifolds, etc. That's the grey areas for me.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #84  
Those gray areas are why you pay an expert. You just have to be the one to put a price on it.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #85  
Have to say, I agree with old IXL and Dodge Man. People who do it every day will surely know wha' works and wha' doesn't. It's the little things that'll bite ye sometimes.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #86  
Dodgeman: I have the time, knowledge, skill, and tools to do every part of the geo myself. But lack the experience. Knowing how the order in which to do things, knowing what is good stuff and what to avoid, sizing plumbing and manifolds, etc. That's the grey areas for me.

Do you have access to someone else's install you can look at / study / copy? I would be hesitant to get into this project starting from scratch, but I'd have no concerns duplicating/upgrading/replacing the system we have now, especially after watching most of the work go on while our house was being built. The only part I'd have to sub out would be the well drilling, but in your case you have the equivalent trenching capability covered.

Even if you had a system to copy, there will be learning moments and things you would do different the next time. Question is whether you can accept that, and whether it comes with time/cost/operational risk.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #87  
Looking at the total cost for the install by others against the few thousand you will save doing it yourself (say $4,000), along with the amount of work involved and time to do it, it seems to be pretty much an even choice.
Pay for the install and have warranty work done (parts and labour) as part of the deal against having to do all of it yourself.
If you can afford it, it looks like having someone else do the install might be the better way to go.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #88  
LD, what happened to your Uncle's friend?
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #89  
Holy Heck!
\
All these prices scare me. There is a lotta gold to be made in Geothermal systems, it seems.

My system, open loop well, 4 ton single stage was 11,000. I did all the ducting, plumbing and wiring myself.
Well was already in, but I had to upgrade the submersible pump to 1 Hp from 1/2 (included) and I already had a waste water disposal sump in place. My system has been running for 9 years, no problems.

If I had paid for the well it would have cost me 5700 more, so the total would be 16,700, plus my labor to install the ducts plumbing and wiring. My own labor time was about 40 hours. Puts the cost at $ 18,300 plus 13% tax= 7 year payback, now complete. Free A/C in Summer, free hot water in Winter. Good decision, IMO

PS>> those prices are in Canada dollars FWIW.. back then 1 CDN dollar =93 cents US
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY
  • Thread Starter
#90  
I do have a system I can look at. Its at a relatives house, but doesnt reveal anything that I dont already know. All the ducting was closed off, and the manifold system is outside burried in the ground. Those are my two biggest concerns.

LD, what happened to your Uncle's friend?

We got that cold snap and he got busy with service calls. Then this week with the holidays and my work schedule, we just havent had time to meet up.

I told him it was no hurry though. I dont plan on doing anything for at least 6 months, so if he has more important things to do, chatting with me can wait.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #91  
I can offer a perspective on the geothermal set up.
Firstly: an air to air system is the cheapest to buy, but it is not the most cost-effective system over time, because the latent heat of the atmospheric air is lower than the latent heat of the earth-warmed water. It takes more electrical energy to get heat for the house out of the atmosphere than out of the earth, so it costs more for the heat captured.
Secondly: Geothermal energy from the earth is a constant, because the mean temperature of water from the ground is 44 degrees F One pound of water carries 1 Btu of heat per degree F. iI the intake water temp difference is 10 degrees warmer than the discharged water temp. The amount of captured heat you get is 100 BTU for every imperial gallon of water passing through the heat pump i. For a normally insulated (R20) home of 1500 sq ft you probably need 60,000 Btu's per hour, or 6000 gallons of water per hour. 10 imperial gallons of water per minute are required to get 6,000 btu per hour
All that the heat pump does is chill the intake water by ten degrees F and then it transfers the captured heat from that water into the house, usually from a radiator in the forced air circuit. 60,000 Btu/hr is the capacity rating of a 4 ton heat pump, give or take. To do this the heat pump uses a refrigeration compressor pump, usually electrically driven by 220 vac power running about 10 to 20 amps draw. That power requirement includes the energy for the forced air fan and the water pump needed to supply ground-temp water to the refrigeration coil from the well.
Thirdly, in hot weather the system reverses its function and passes 44 degree F cool ground temp water through the heat exchange radiator, where it cools the forced air that cools the house. This cooled air passes off air moisture as condensate to waste. This is a so called passive air-cconditioning system that requires only energy for pumping water and forcing air...virtually free AC..and it works very well.; I have just such a system in my home in chilly Canada. In 2002, heating oil was about $4.00 per imperial gallon and I used about a thousand gallons per winter

My total cost for my system all in was $14000, in 2003 CDN doillars, that cost included drilling and plumbing a 120 ft deep 6" dia. 14 GPH water well, a disposal well for the waste chilled water, and a 1 HP Jacuzzi three- stage submerged pump and all water lines made up of 200 feet of 1 1/2" 300 lb test irrigation hose and doubled SS clamps at every joint. It cost me $4000 (discount net)per year for fuel oil heat then, before the Geothermal system was installed, plus about 100 per month for electricity for all purposes. After the pump was set up, the total cost for energy per year was 2500 all in. At an est'd annual savings of about 4500 per year The payback period was 2.5 years
Fourthly, there are other savings from free hot water gained by the super heat removed from the refrigertion compressor heads by water circulation. This amount of heat would probable be worth about 400 per winter..there is no free hot water in the summer, since the refrigeration unit does not run then.
Fifthly, the air duct system is highly filtered air benefits of geothermal, so no dust in the house, but I need to clean (wash) the air filter twice a year or more That filter is a 40x 40 " electrostatic type adjacent to the big radiator heat exchanger, about the size of a big truck radiator. My system has been in service for 12 years without any maintenance expense, so far, and has saved me about $45,000 - 11,000 or about 34,000 dollars. Quite a bargain, quite a convenience and free AC every hot sweltering summer day. The "passive" AC is very effective and will keep my house below 70 Deg F when the outside air temp is over 95 Deg F.

A couple of notes:

The system must be designed to avoid energy bottlenecks, IE..use BIG air ducts.. at least 20" x40" for the main duct, that means for both the supply air return and the warm air, plus 12 each of x 8" circular lateral ducts to the floor vents and floor vents of at least 40 " sq per duct outlet, at least one duct per room. I used a common return air duct (a big floor register) in the central hallway rather than place a full set of return air ducts in every room.
A water well of at least 12 Gal imperial measure per minute flow capacity and water supply piping of at least 1.5 inch ID..ditto for the discharge water piping to waste, a one hp well pump, and a lift of less than 35 feet to the refrigeration pump. My cold air return ducts are the same theorectical size as the warm air ducts. Since the lower end of the water discharge hose is lower than the intake end, it is a syphon and requires olny a small amount of pumping power to operate ( for friction losses) saving wear and tear and energy losses on the submersion water pump.

There is a lot of ductwork and it takes up a lot of space under the floor, but the capacity of the ducts is a critical system requirement..too little air throughput will overheat the refrigeration pump and fry the system. There is also the capacity of the waste water disposal system to consider. there is a lot of water used in the space of 24 hours in winter...14000 gallons per day. I used a 25 foot deep by 3 foot dia concrete casing down to bedrock with a lid for my spill return, and my ground is hard sand..no clay. It works very well. My supply well is drilled into an artesian spring that flows 30 gal per minute and raises to 4 feet from grade. That well also suppies my house water system. I am favored by having plentiful good water and very good drainage, all of which was proven before I designed my system. The well never goes dry nor becomes turbid.

That is just plain lucky. Artesian wells like that are not a dime a dozen. That well has aswved me $50,000 so far and counting


My heat pump is manufactured in New Brunswick, Canada by Maritime Geothermal to my sepcs It is a three ton refrigeration compressor with a four ton heat exchanger, occupying about a ten sq foot footprint and being about 6 feet high. It runs pretty quietly too. This particular system has a very high co-efficient of performance..about 3.9. There are none better to my knowledge. The owner of Maritime Geothermal is Glenn Kaye, P.Eng out of Pettitcodiac He is a world reknowned expert. and the only recognized CSA authority on heat pumps in Canada. (In plain English the system is 3.9 times as efficient as a unit that saves nothing benefit over cost to operate (Air to air heat pumps work at about 2.0 COP in warm to cool air and at less than 1 in very cold air (32 degree F) at best) These type sometimes do not require ducts, just conduit and refrigerant pipes. They can be had cheap, but do not last as long as a good geothermal system will because the compressors run too hot.

The proof of the pudding is in the system, its efficiency and longievity without failure. The market name for my heat pump is " NORDIC" so far, in service for 12 years no maintenance. I would say that is proof.

I can recommend it unreservedly, in Canada. It is probably available in the USA, but I do not know that.

All costs that I have stated are true, but I did a lot of the labor myself: supply and install all plumbing, wiring and ductwork. Supply and install the heatpump base, Supply and install the well and drain sump.. Those saved me about 5,000. There was no retail mark-up because my friend and I owned a Refigeration company and we bought the stuff wholesale saving perhaps 7,000. We have since retired and no longer operate the company

The retail cost of the system, if contractor built, in 2002 would have been about $25,000 plus 15% sales taxes. The payback period at that cost would have been about seven years, but still a viable and worthwhile idea.

The only downside: It cannot operate on standby power My genny is too small, so I still have a standby oil furnace for when the power is out.


its good here, but it ain't Shangri-La

It must be said that there are a number of different types of "geothermal" heat pump systems. My system is called an "open loop" system because the water comes directly from a well and goes directly back into the earth. There are "closed loop" systems which circulate glycol in pipes in the earth. Closed loop systems require a great deal of pipe and area in the ground so that the earth is not frozen by the chilled glycol in the return loop, or alternatively, a large number of drilled holes that carry glycol in pipes in a vertical grid. Closed loop systems are much more expensive to install and not as efficient. Not everyone has a good well, or a good drain, so that is the reason for closed loop systems. In such cases an examination of the various "air to air" systems (with backup electrical heat) should be examined and analyzed for cost savings. Many of those on the market are of dubious value. IMO
Anybody here using Geothermal Heating and Cooling? I've been reading up on this and it makes a lot of sense when you consider it uses around 25% of the power a regular HVAC system uses to pay for itself in 7 to 10 years they claim, and I heard the feds are giving 30% tax brake which makes it a lot more affordable
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #92  
I have had a system in for 10 years roughly. Our payback was less than 5 years, but our previous system was LP. Google the tax break for geo, I think it’s less now but still helps a lot.

I looked it up, it is 30%. That means if your system costs $20k you will actually pay $14k for it.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #93  
Never oversized if you want the cooling to actually do it’s job correctly. It is intended to dehumidify not cool. Dehumidifying is achieved by long run cycles
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #94  
I've got a Waterfurnace closed loop that runs through my back yard and through horse pasture. No complaints and have never used the resistance heat.
Mom has an open loop with poorer water quality that causes problems if filters are not cleaned regularly.
My electric company would not give a rebate on an open loop when it was installed about 16 years ago.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY
  • Thread Starter
#95  
Anybody here using Geothermal Heating and Cooling? I've been reading up on this and it makes a lot of sense when you consider it uses around 25% of the power a regular HVAC system uses to pay for itself in 7 to 10 years they claim, and I heard the feds are giving 30% tax brake which makes it a lot more affordable
Yes, This is actually my thread from 9 years ago when I was contemplating doing my own geothermal. Which I did end up doing.

To say that it uses around 25% of the power of a "regular" HVAC system all depends on how you define a "regular" system.
A system that heats with wood, propane, fuel, etc actually doesnt use much "power". And how the costs compare can vary widely year to year.

If you are talking about comparing geo to a regular air-source heat pump....then above 40 degrees outside temp there is actually little difference. Geo doesnt really start showing significant improvement over convention air-to-air until the temps start dropping. So if you live where there is mild winters....like TN or NC not much savings and longer payback. If you live in Michigan or Montana....big difference. An air-source will be limited and youd be relying on some other form of heat most of the winter.

Now if you are talking about electric resistance....like baseboard or radiant or electric furnace..... geothermal is indeed about 3x-4x more efficient. Simply meaning that for each kwh of electricity you buy....you only get 3414btu's of heat out of electric. But if its geothermal....that same kwh of electricity can buy you ~12,000btu's of heat.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY
  • Thread Starter
#96  
Never oversized if you want the cooling to actually do it’s job correctly. It is intended to dehumidify not cool. Dehumidifying is achieved by long run cycles
Biggest bunch of BS in all of HVAC. Especially when you consider modern 2-stage and variable-speed systems.

There is no worse feeling than spending $25000 for a "professional" to install a geo system.....only for the backup strips to CONSTANTLY have to come on in the winter because the system simply cannot keep a home warm in the winter.

I cant tell you how many HVAC guys swear that in ohio, you need to size a system based on cooling load (for proper dehumidification) like you claim.

And HVAC system does not care weather its heating or cooling.....what it cares about is the delta....(temp difference from inside to outside).

And if you size a HVAC system to keep your house 70° when its 100° outside....thats a delta of 30°.
That also means on the heating size that your system is only sized to keep your house 70° when the outside temps get to 40° And below that you need other forms of heat. Whats the point of spending tens of thousands of dollars for a system than can only keep your house warm if the temps in the winter stay 40° or above?

I have a 4-ton system thats 2-stage. On AC, 2nd stage never comes on. IT acts like a 2.5 or so ton unit. The cold spell we just had over christmas, where we had -30° windchills and -11° actual temps....I NEVER had to use a backup form of heat because I sized my system for my heating load NOT for AC.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #97  
Neighbor has an open loop system which works well, needed replacement after 30 years.

I think open loop is a bad idea. Uses your well water and dumps it out somewhere which I think is wasteful. Good if you have infinite flow from your aquifer and no worries about ever running your well dry.

Closed loop systems need to be designed well to give you enough capacity.

5 years ago I went with air sourced cold climate heat pump mini-splits. A little less efficient but way cheaper to install if you don't have existing duct work.

I think heat pumps are the way to go. Better designed and built houses regarding energy efficiency is important otherwise you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #98  
I have had an open loop system for 40 years. I would not consider a closed loop system today, as the air to air systems have gotten so efficient. An open loop system is typically at least 25% more efficient than a closed loop.

Water quality can be an issue with open loop, as well as what to do with the returned water. I return to the aquifer using another deep well.
If either of those issues can’t be dealt with, go with a modern air to air with variable speed compressor and fans. You can size for heat and still properly dehumidify with a variable capacity system like that.

If you have any doubts about the difference in efficiency, ask why glycol is circulated in a closed loop instead of water. Hint- the incoming water on my open loop is at least 20 degrees above freezing.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #99  
5 years ago I went with air sourced cold climate heat pump mini-splits. A little less efficient but way cheaper to install if you don't have existing duct work..

I would completely agree. I just put a 21 SEER Mitsubishi in my shop, and it works great.
 
   / geothermal questions and possible DIY #100  
If you have the water source, open loop is best, although water quality can degrade the heat exchanger coil faster. 2nd best is closed loop in the bottom of a lake or large pond. I have glycol in my closed loops buried about 6 ft in my yard.
I had oil heat previously. My electric usage went up some with geothermal, but overall savings, especially with today’s oil prices. Mine been running 10 yrs. love how quiet they are, no outdoor unit, no boiler exhaust fan running.
 

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