Unsafe generator wiring et al.

[John_Mc]

7000 watt generator could have indeed powered those homes without overloading.

I doubt that. You have to remember everything is going to be turning on at nearly the same time.

maybe not. If those homes have a generator that is properly connected, they will be disconnected from the grid.

The whole point of this is that people are fallible: both the homeowners and the people working on the lines. It also may not be the lineman who comes across that downed line. While helping to clean up and dig people out after an early season snow storm 5 years ago, I was volunteering on our community cutting downed trees out of roads and driveways. We were not touching any trees that were in contact with power lines. We were leaving those for the pros. We figured we could help out some home owners, and also make it easier for the pros to reach the trees where their expertise was really needed. Someone from the power company passed by as we were working on a driveway with multiple trees. He told us that the line was disconnected, and we could go ahead and finish the driveway while he dealt with a problem just down the road. Another volunteer went to pick up a wet log that was in contact with a downed line and felt a tingle. He dropped the log and we discontinued work until the lineman came back.

My house is wired properly, with the generator backfeeding the panel through a mechanical interlock. I have to admit that in a true emergency, I might rig something up: house risking freezing and bursting pipes, or a person with an oxygen concentrator or other medical device who is stranded in a storm. If they had no generator hook up, my first choice would be to disconnect the required appliance from the grid and plug it directly in to the generator. If there was no other way, I MIGHT consider taking other measures, but I would stay there full time while it was operating AND hang a note on their main disconnect describing what was going on.

 

[sunandsand]

I'm here in east central Floriduh where we had two storms back to back (Ian, then Nicole). Even though FPL has hardened their system, we were still out for five days because of Ian.

I have a 3.5KW Harbor Freight special. What we do is put it out back of the house and run extension cords to the fridge, freezer, a couple of lights, and the phone chargers. I also connect it to the well pump (plug on the pump, socket for main power), unplug pump from FPL (main power), plug into 220 volt outlet on generator so no possibility of back feed.

Turn it off at night, can't sleep with the noise, and the fridge and freezer stay cold until next AM when we restart the generator.

Took about six gallons of gas total.

No A/C (but not real hot anyway), tepid showers. We "roughed it" for a couple of days.

Power came back on, put everything away (and drain carb and shutoff valve on generator) until next time.

We don't "need" 100% uninterruptible power, yes, it would be nice, but not thousands and thousands of dollars worth of nice. Been here 13 years, used the generator three times, total maybe ten to twelve days. Other 4,735 days (plus a couple of leap year days), we haven't needed it.

YMMV.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida



For Nicole, the power flickered once or twice, but stayed on.

 

[etpm]

I'd guess that when there's a power outage, most people get up, look out the window to see if it's just them or the neighborhood, maybe find a flashlight, and try their phone to call someone else to see if their power is out as well. They do NOT go around and turn everything off in their house.

I guess I'm odd then. After I know the power is out and is gonna be for a while I turn everything off, which is really just the lights because I don't want them all coming on when I'm asleep. The TV and computer won't turn on by themselves when power is restored. If I had a blender running or something like that I would certainly turn it off. And in my machine shop, before I retired, I would throw the breakers for any equipment that could turn.
Eric

 

[KenEtch]

Please keep in mind installing a generator without an interlock to prevent a back feed situation is almost always a code violation, and a serious
one at that.

Amen to that. I have a generator setup with interlock, the safest & legal setup. I truly understand electrical & back feeding could potentially be lethal to someone else. Basically, if you don't know how to wire a generator safely to your house panel, seek assistance.

 

[sandman2234]

I'm here in east central Floriduh where we had two storms back to back (Ian, then Nicole). Even though FPL has hardened their system, we were still out for five days because of Ian.

I have a 3.5KW Harbor Freight special. What we do is put it out back of the house and run extension cords to the fridge, freezer, a couple of lights, and the phone chargers. I also connect it to the well pump (plug on the pump, socket for main power), unplug pump from FPL (main power), plug into 220 volt outlet on generator so no possibility of back feed.

Turn it off at night, can't sleep with the noise, and the fridge and freezer stay cold until next AM when we restart the generator.

Took about six gallons of gas total.

No A/C (but not real hot anyway), tepid showers. We "roughed it" for a couple of days.

Power came back on, put everything away (and drain carb and shutoff valve on generator) until next time.

We don't "need" 100% uninterruptible power, yes, it would be nice, but not thousands and thousands of dollars worth of nice. Been here 13 years, used the generator three times, total maybe ten to twelve days. Other 4,735 days (plus a couple of leap year days), we haven't needed it.

YMMV.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida



For Nicole, the power flickered once or twice, but stayed on.

You were fortunate! The Disaster relief team I am on spent some time in Port Charlotte and there were plenty of people still without power after a couple weeks! We were doing roof tarps and chainsaw work for Ian, and mudouts for Nicole.
David from jax

 

[sunandsand]

You were fortunate! The Disaster relief team I am on spent some time in Port Charlotte and there were plenty of people still without power after a couple weeks! We were doing roof tarps and chainsaw work for Ian, and mudouts for Nicole.
David from jax

Absolutely agree, we were indeed fortunate. We have some nearby neighbors who didn't do as well.

Neighbor #1 (a mile north of us) built their geodesic dome home about 30 years ago. They put down 3 feet of shell and compacted it. County building inspector said no good, you have to build on grade, refused to let them proceed until all the shell was removed. Result 30 years later - two feet of water in the house, all the wallboard soaked right up to the ceiling, all the insulation ditto, all furniture on ground floor ruined, business equipment, appliances, nice VW Eos convertible in garage totaled, they are NOT happy. Building inspector is long gone (deceased) so nobody to sue. They're pushing paper for FEMA. Rebuilding because they want to stay there.

Neighbor #2 (half a mile north of us), in an older subdivision, houses maybe six inches to a foot above grade. Same thing. All the wallboard, insulation, furniture ruined, they took out some wallboard between a bedroom and one of the bathrooms, found it BOILING with carpenter ants, plenty of mold, altogether nasty. They're staying too, they're also trying to work with FEMA, but not getting particularly fast or good results.

We got over 20 inches of rain in 24 hours, and there was simply no place for it to go. A contributing factor was budget cuts for the mosquito control district. Five years ago they decided they wouldn't maintain the ditches (and there are a LOT of them) and the cities had to do it - but they never bothered to tell the cities! Result was that the ditches were clogged with brush, old tires, miscellaneous junk, some people had filled them and some people had actually built on them! (No building permits of course . . . ) Then the rains came and the water stayed.

Then, to add insult to injury, FEMA came to town. FEMA . . . Futile Expectations of Meaningful Assistance. Conflicting information, atrocious website, bounce back and forth between FEMA and SBA, both saying the other one is who you need to contact. One guy I worked with said he is a GSA employee and they said they needed him for disaster relief. The promised six day's training was done in four hours and he's at work processing claims. One thing they ALL asked me was "Where's a good place to eat around here?" (Pay my claim and I'll tell you.)

I had a small claim, and the form wanted to know name, address, SSN, phone, birth date - and here's a new one - WHERE I was born! (I thought about saying "In a log cabin" but I have no political aspirations.) I did the repairs myself, and they say no, that's no good, you have to have a contractor do it and send us an invoice. I didn't even claim for labor, just for the well pump which died, and I gave them a copy of the invoice.

Reminds me of the joke about how many programmers does it take to change a light bulb . . . none, that's a hardware problem. They wanted me to call a contractor to connect two pipes and one wire - and of course all the contractors were and still are busy, and we wouldn't have had water in the house until some time in 2026.

I did get a box of MRE's from them for next time . . .

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[GeneV]

I just installed an interlock on my panel. Cheap, easy to install, makes it idiot proof safe and up to code...kinda dumb not to do it imho.

 

[KenEtch]

I just installed an interlock on my panel. Cheap, easy to install, makes it idiot proof safe and up to code...kinda dumb not to do it imho.

I did same thing, installed interlock, last year as I posted in this thread #44, in our South TX winter mobil home, all electric. Generator is 5500 running watts with 30A built in breaker. Later I determined all my "necessary" appliance draws using clamp on meter, so I know ahead of time what I can operate. Generator can selectively power one stove top burner (<20A), elec fireplace in living room (13A), 1 ton mini split in Texas room (7A), hot water heater (25A), coffee pot (11A).... the key is selective. Frige on always, these other higher draw appliances one at a time, etc. Hot water heater obviously turned off when water is hot. A plus is lights are operable in all rooms. No elec furnace (44A) or A/c, but mini split easily keeps TX room (same as Florida room) comfortable. Elec fireplace or one space heater at a time keeps individual spaces semi comfortable in cold weather. It's all about energy use management on limited power generator.

 

[jwmorris]

I wonder how many people are injured each year because of people who believe their unsafe situation is safe.

I wonder how many people are injured each year because they think they can’t get hurt because they always do things safely?

I bet both groups are larger than we think.

 

[GeneV]

I did same thing, installed interlock, last year as I posted in this thread #44, in our South TX winter mobil home, all electric. Generator is 5500 running watts with 30A built in breaker. Later I determined all my "necessary" appliance draws using clamp on meter, so I know ahead of time what I can operate. Generator can selectively power one stove top burner (<20A), elec fireplace in living room (13A), 1 ton mini split in Texas room (7A), hot water heater (25A), coffee pot (11A).... the key is selective. Frige on always, these other higher draw appliances one at a time, etc. Hot water heater obviously turned off when water is hot. A plus is lights are operable in all rooms. No elec furnace (44A) or A/c, but mini split easily keeps TX room (same as Florida room) comfortable. Elec fireplace or one space heater at a time keeps individual spaces semi comfortable in cold weather. It's all about energy use management on limited power generator.

That's why I opted for an interlock as opposed to a transfer switch. I want the option to pick and choose what I want to power, per circumstances.

 

[LouNY]

I did same thing, installed interlock, last year as I posted in this thread #44, in our South TX winter mobil home, all electric. Generator is 5500 running watts with 30A built in breaker. Later I determined all my "necessary" appliance draws using clamp on meter, so I know ahead of time what I can operate. Generator can selectively power one stove top burner (<20A), elec fireplace in living room (13A), 1 ton mini split in Texas room (7A), hot water heater (25A), coffee pot (11A).... the key is selective. Frige on always, these other higher draw appliances one at a time, etc. Hot water heater obviously turned off when water is hot. A plus is lights are operable in all rooms. No elec furnace (44A) or A/c, but mini split easily keeps TX room (same as Florida room) comfortable. Elec fireplace or one space heater at a time keeps individual spaces semi comfortable in cold weather. It's all about energy use management on limited power generator.

And ready anytime for a larger generator if ever desired.
A breaker change and a bit of wiring.

 

[dieselcrawler]

Interesting thread... as a licensed professional electrician for about 25 years, I've run into some dandy situations, involving generators and otherwise.

I get a good laugh out of Joe Homeowner who says "I'm ok wiring a receptacle or switch, but not this (thing he hired me to do)"... when a "simple" switch or receptacle installed incorrectly can kill someone just as easy as any other wrong installation. Wolf in sheeps clothing, your body doesn't care if the shock came from a switch, or main breaker, it can still kill you!

Please use some type of interlock... last thing you need is some well-intentioned friend/neighbor/relative 'just trying to help out' by hooking up your half-ass generator connection and getting someone hurt or killed.

 

[check]

We get power outages often, and sometimes for days. Had an interlock installed with a 30 amp plug when we built the cottage back in 2002. Still have it of course, but more recently we got a 17 kW Kohler standby generator with an automatic transfer switch.

We need to have it automatic because many times we are not here when the power goes out. And it gets really cold.

Well worth the expenditure, in my view.

And at the rental property, we got one of those newfangled “Generlink” contraptions, which attaches right onto your meter. It automatically shuts off power from the utility company when you plug it in. Not quite as good as an automatic standby generator, but it does power the whole property. The portable generator we use with it is the Westinghouse WGen9500 dual fuel, and we just have to tell the renters not to put the oven on in the cottage or the oven on in the second building during a power outage.

 

[Oaktree]

Neighbor #1 (a mile north of us) built their geodesic dome home about 30 years ago. They put down 3 feet of shell and compacted it. County building inspector said no good, you have to build on grade, refused to let them proceed until all the shell was removed. Result 30 years later - two feet of water in the house, all the wallboard soaked right up to the ceiling, all the insulation ditto, all furniture on ground floor ruined, business equipment, appliances, nice VW Eos convertible in garage totaled, they are NOT happy. Building inspector is long gone (deceased) so nobody to sue.

OK, not sure what you're talking about when you mentioned 3 feet of shell. Are you saying they excavated 3' down and put down seashells for a base? Not quite sure how this could have prevented what happened.
Can't blame the inspector for enforcing building codes, that is their job.

 

[sunandsand]

OK, not sure what you're talking about when you mentioned 3 feet of shell. Are you saying they excavated 3' down and put down seashells for a base? Not quite sure how this could have prevented what happened.
Can't blame the inspector for enforcing building codes, that is their job.

Sorry, I wasn't clear on this.

They brought in 3' of shell (very common fill material here, we use it for roads, etc.) and made a raised building pad. It is called "shell" but it is actually crushed Coquina rock which is fossilized oyster (or something) shells. The old Spanish fort in St. Augustine is built with Coquina (shell). Part of the road to our house is shell, it hardens like concrete so you need to get it smooth when you spread it out because if you don't it will be bumpy forever.

They made a raised pad and it passed the compaction test. Top of the pad was 3' above grade. (Same thing at our home, we are 3' above grade and have been removed from the flood zone by a LOMA [Letter of Map Amendment] so we don't have to buy flood insurance.)

Anyway, what I'm told was the building inspector (allegedly) had a side hustle selling some overpriced hokey vitamins or other and wanted my friends to buy some from him, evidently as an under the radar bribe.

They declined, so he quoted some obscure reg or other (which may not even have been applicable) and wouldn't pass the inspection until the shell (fill) was removed, and that they had to build on grade (which is obviously and absolutely wrong).

Inspector is long deceased, so there's no way to get his side of the story. Of course, it could easily be a he-said, she-said with the third interpretation (i.e. what actually happened) someplace else completely.

I will say that the soggy homeowners are truthful people, and he was an engineer for NASA at the Cape, he tends to read the regs pretty carefully, tends to overbuild stuff and doesn't cut corners. I will also say that there just might possibly have been a few rumors or even actual instances of "slight, accidental irregularities" and "inadvertent mis-interpretations of the rules" on the part of a few not-exactly-impartial government officials on very rare occasions over the years.

They're grumbling about suing the county, but they are going to need ALL their paperwork (30-plus years old) and it will be a fight because the county (and all government entities) have attorneys on staff to defend against exactly this sort of thing (we pay for them out of our taxes) while they need to hire outside counsel - so they'll be paying attorney fees out of their property taxes to defend against their own lawsuit - after hiring an attorney to pursue it - against the county. (Gotcha coming and going.)

They are not happy campers right now. The damage estimates are about $50K, FEMA has coughed up something like $15K, and there is likely hidden damage they haven't even found yet.

Whew. What a circus.

Best Regards,

Mike/Florida

 

[Joe Batt]

... a $69 part....
just install the interlock.

..Where do I get that? ... I just googled and found them. It's just a piece of plastic that enforces the breaker is off or on.

I've only heard of transfer switches and was told that it would be a minimum of a couple $1,000 for the wiring. In the past 20 years, no one has mentioned to me how easy this would have been to fix.

 

[sockmonkey]

It seems that at least once a year the subject of generator wiring comes up. And at least one person posts about how their particular situation, though it looks unsafe (suicide cords, for example) to most folks, is actually safe because of whatever reason they use to justify the safety of whatever they are doing. Nobody will ever be hurt because they have everything under control and if they are not around to insure safety then their spouse or trusted friend or relative knows not to do so and so, etc. Of course generator wiring is only one instance where people try to justify their bad practice. My opinion is that the reason people do these things is because they are lazy or cheap or both. It has been my experience I cannot do or say anything to change this behavior. I wonder how many people are injured each year because of people who believe their unsafe situation is safe.
Eric

A dad-gum transfer switch INSTALLED PROPERLY is the answer.

 

[grsthegreat]

www.geninterlock.com

they have aluminum interlocks. very inexpensive and UL Listed.

I have no affiliations with the company, but have ordered LOTS of their interlocks and generaton power inlet devices from them over the years. shipping to my door in maybe 3-4 days.

as long as you have 2 breaker spaces available in your panel, and you dont have an extremely old Zinsco panel, the installation of interlock is extremely easy. As an electrical contractor, i have installed MANY of these over the years. most take about 1-1.5 hours including installing exterior inlet outlet and interlock, and demonstrating to homeowner how to use it. Heck, i installed one last week....and im retired.

 

[aeblank]

When there is a major power outage here in PNW, Those guys never sleep.

Look into this...ours (Consumers Power) get *paid* to sleep. It's a set time and it's mandatory.
That's on top of the overtime and what not.
Super hard work, for sure, etc., but they're making bank during said outages.
I'm an engineer and they get in a day (24h) what I get in a week (ball-parking, cause I only know my take-home and their gross).

 

[animal12]

I know " some " power companies & co-op's did not approve these interlocks when they first came out . I tried to have teh unit that go's between the meter & the meter base approved & the engineer would not approve it . He's gone now & that co-op allows them now 12-15 years later . If it's not a approved Transfer switch it's best to have the power company involved approve anything else before instillation . I have had power shut off in places that have illeagle generator installs & I have removed several myself over the years.
animal