Hydraulic fluid

[UncleBuck1]

I’m about to hit 500 hours on my clock on my MF 2660HD so its about time to change my hydraulic oil. The tractor holds 11 gallons of hydraulic fluid and with current prices this is not a cheap job!

For my tractor the relevant spec is M1143 (MF Permatran iii recommended); will any fluid that meets or exceeds this spec work? Is there any real world difference between fluids assuming they meet M1143 specs?

 

[Rockbadchild]

yes ... My MF owner manual state to use permatran 821 XL or equivalent, I am surprise yours doesn't state the same... The permetran III is full synthetic oil so as long it meet the same requirement you are good to go ....

For me the permatran 821 XL is semi synthetic, the shop I went too only had the Duratran XL and it is also semi synthetic and probably was as expensive if not more but I don't know, I didn't compare and I didn't care.... It cost me 500$ with engine oil .... I have almost full 5 gallon pail left... the full system called for 13.7 gallon so I bought 15 gallon but it only took me about 11 gallon I am assuming the rest was left in the lines...

 

[5030]

With hydraulic fluid just like engine oil and grease, quality and longevity is price based. You buy cheap, you get cheap and in reality, that applies to everything in life.

 

[rodneyn]

With hydraulic fluid just like engine oil and grease, quality and longevity is price based. You buy cheap, you get cheap and in reality, that applies to everything in life.

Well stated comment on cheap oils. TSC traveller caused shearing issues when hot. Loss of hydraulic pressure was final result. Replaced using Ambria NH brand issues went away. Since then NH discontinued ambria oil. Now using case IH hydraulic oil no issues. Good hydraulic oils have heat stabilization and prevent shearing in pump. They also fight off hydoscopic issues on drawing moisture (water) when tractor sits in change of season. Don’t let a budget interfere with purchasing good hydraulic oil, it will save you time and money in the long run using quality oil. Oils are not equal in performance.

 

[rcio7684]

I was due to change the hydraulic fluid/filter in my 1723E in the Fall of 2021. I researched the forums to see if substituting a different hydraulic oil instead of the the Permatran 821XL was acceptable. I stopped by my dealer and spoke to the service manager asking for the appropriate fluid. He said they use "ARGuard Premium Universal Fluid" from the American Refining Group. He also said it meets all specs for use in the GC1723E. He also went on to say that "We use this in all our equipment" (they sell Massey, Kioti and several other lawn care brands, plus rent heavy equipment).

The back label of the container notes it is recommended for Agco-Allis Power Fluid 821XL (and several other brands hydraulic fluid), plus it was $74 for 5 gallons a significant savings over the Permatran.

 

[5030]

As a rule, I NEVER shop by cost on fluids or on filters for those fluids. When you start shopping by cost you are on the slippery slope towards eventual failure.

 

[rScotty]

Hydraulic oils don't have the same standards that engine oils do. For engine oils we have all sorts of information about what we are buying because oils have those symbols on the can showing they meet standards by the Society of Automotive Engineers and and American Petroleum Institute and the International one as well. SAE, API, and ILSAC.

But the only thing that is required of hydraulic oils is viscosity, and not always that. So there is no way for the consumer to compare hydraulic fluids. Any one can market whatever they want. Instead of meeting standard tests, what you will see on the container are slippery legal words like: 'similar to", "meets all the same specs"...and things like that. Technically it's not a lie since there are no published specs for hydraulic oils. Companies keep their hydraulic oil formulas and specs as their own proprietary trade secrets.

About all I have figured out to do is pick a brand you trust & then gain some experience. If anyone knows a better way please post it. I suspect that a lot of the cheaper oil is used hydraulic fluid that has been highly filtered - what we used to call "re-processed" and mixed in with similar viscosity base stock.

 

[2manyrocks]

^That's pretty frightening considering how expensive hydraulic systems are.

 

[rScotty]

^That's pretty frightening considering how expensive hydraulic systems are.

WELL, yes and no. Using specific fluids is common knowledge among people who work with hydraulics - and especially with trans/hydraulics with a shared sump. So it's not like we don't know this stuff. Mechanics talk about it and have for years.

And something else is working in everyone's favor. I'm not sure just what it is, but us old mechanics have noticed that we just don't hear about trans/hydraulic and seal failures as much in the last 20 years as we used to. Somehow, all those systems are noticibly more reliable now. Whatever is happening is working

A big company like Deere or Cat or NH is going to make darn sure own secret version of trans/hydraulic fluid is good to go with their own seals and metals and wet friction material. And they sell their fluids to anyone. So it's easy to get a fluid specific to a machine for a price.

rScotty

 

[DMW]

yes ... My MF owner manual state to use permatran 821 XL or equivalent, I am surprise yours doesn't state the same... The permetran III is full synthetic oil so as long it meet the same requirement you are good to go ....

For me the permatran 821 XL is semi synthetic, the shop I went too only had the Duratran XL and it is also semi synthetic and probably was as expensive if not more but I don't know, I didn't compare and I didn't care.... It cost me 500$ with engine oil .... I have almost full 5 gallon pail left... the full system called for 13.7 gallon so I bought 15 gallon but it only took me about 11 gallon I am assuming the rest was left in the lines...

Petro Canada's Duratran XL is one of the best THFs for cold weather climates. Not many better out there, and far better than the 821 XL (IMO). It may be a little overkill for the OPs location, and difficult to source.

 

[rScotty]

Maybe we ought to study up on the differences between tradtional, synthetic, and semi-synthetic. I know I could use some more understanding. For example, what is a semi-synthetic?

 

[marhar]

As a rule, I NEVER shop by cost on fluids or on filters for those fluids. When you start shopping by cost you are on the slippery slope towards eventual failure.

Compared to the purchase cost and the cost of repair, the cost of the fluids and filters is negligible.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Petro Canada's Duratran XL is one of the best THFs for cold weather climates. Not many better out there, and far better than the 821 XL (IMO). It may be a little overkill for the OPs location, and difficult to source.

Good to know thanks for pointing that out I wasn't aware of it, that's why this shop is using it then being in a northern community and supplying a northern costumers ... Id like to point out that I wasn't suggesting this particular oil to OPs, I was expressing my thought process when I went out to purchase hydraulic fluid... but it is good that you pointed this out for him...

 

[Rockbadchild]

Maybe we ought to study up on the differences between tradtional, synthetic, and semi-synthetic. I know I could use some more understanding. For example, what is a semi-synthetic?

Semi-Synthetic is a blend between synthetic oil and traditional oil ...

below is a copy past text from the website link below ...

Motor Oils are formulated and marketed as conventional, full synthetic, part synthetic and semi synthetic. What is the difference between synthetic and semi synthetic or semi synthetic and conventional? The difference lies in the type of base oils that are used in the formulation and this is what defines these motor oil categories.

WHAT IS CONVENTIONAL MOTOR OIL?​

The base oil used in a conventional motor oil is 100% mineral oil which is obtained through the refining of crude oil. Here the crude oil is distilled and cleaned up to produce a high-quality base oil. This is done without substantial molecular changes being made to the hydrocarbons in the base oil during the process.

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SYNTHETIC AND SEMI SYNTHETIC OIL?​

A synthetic base oil is derived though the creation of new base oil components (synthesis) to produce a stronger performing base fluid.

• For a full synthetic motor oil 100% of the base oil composition contains these stronger synthesized base oil components.
• For semi-synthetic or part synthetic motor oils (these terms are largely used interchangeably) the base oil composition is a combination of synthetic and conventional base oils. There is no definition of how much synthetic needs to be included in a semi or part synthetic motor oil.
  

The use of synthetic base oil can substantially improve the performance of the motor oil. Synthetic base oils

• Improve low temperature performance
• Provide higher thermal stability or heat resistance
• Possess better oil burn of performance or lower volatility
• Enable lighter viscosity motor oils such as 0W-20 to be formulated
• Can help improve motor oil shear stability or the ability to resist viscosity breakdown

WHAT IS BETTER SEMI SYNTHETIC OR FULL SYNTHETIC OIL?​

The more synthetic base oil contained in a motor oil in general the better the performance. In turn, a full synthetic motor oil formulated with a robust additive system will always be better than synthetic blends. That said a properly formulated semi-synthetic can offer performance benefits over a conventional motor oil.

HOW LONG DOES SEMI-SYNTHETIC OIL LAST?​

Adding synthetic base oil to motor can produce a stronger motor oil due to the benefit of synthetics. Depending upon the amount of synthetic in the base oil composition the semi-synthetic motor oil can be more resistant to the various factors that can degrade a motor oil. Castrol incorporates a material amount of synthetic in our part synthetic formulations to help improve oil burn off performance as well as low temperature flow. That said a robust additive system is also critical to the overall performance of the motor oil. Thus, one must consider both in judging performance. While the incorporation of synthetic can produce stronger motor oils Castrol always recommends that one follow the vehicle manufacturers recommendation for oil service and engine oil drain intervals.

FULL VS SEMI SYNTHETIC VS CONVENTIONAL | WELCOME | CASTROL USA

Not all motor oils are the same, but you may not know that at the outset. Learn how synthetic engine oil compares vs conventional and semi-synthetic blends.

www.castrol.com

 

[Rockbadchild]

Synthetic vs Semi Synthetic vs Conventional Oil | Andy Mohr Nissan IN

What is the difference between synthetic, semi-synthetic, and conventional oil? Find out in this article from Andy Mohr Nissan. Then contact us!

www.andymohr-nissan.com

 

[5030]

I never worry about how long any motor oil or hydraulic fluid will last. I let Blackstone Labs tell me, been doing that for years now.

 

[Rockbadchild]

I never worry about how long any motor oil or hydraulic fluid will last. I let Blackstone Labs tell me, been doing that for years now.

can you elaborate?

 

[rScotty]

OK. So there is traditional refining from petroleum crude. We know about that. How good the traditional oil is depends on the base stock, the refiner, and additives. And it tends to be too thick in the cold and to thin in the heat.

Then there is synthesized oil from petroleum gas which which is better in all ways and costs more although it needs less additives. I get that.

And apparently if the two are mixed in ANY AMOUNT the manufacturer can call it semi-synthetic.
So why buy semi-synthetic? Where's the meat? Or is "semi" just advertising fluff?

I sure seems like there is a lot of room for advertising in hydraulic oils, and not much accountability.
rScotty

 

[MESSMAKER]

Has there ever been an instance of hydraulic failure due to using non branded fluid? I have never heard of one,

 

[Tx Jim]

Has there ever been an instance of hydraulic failure due to using non branded fluid? I have never heard of one,

Are you asking about non branded oil that meets or exceeds manufacture spec's or just any hyd oil? Many tractors have had hyd components failed from using hyd oil that ""didn't meet hyd oil spec's"''. Also moisture accumulation in hyd systems can cause hyd component failures.