Dealer Service

[5030]

I agree and I'm glad my service tech usually thinks outside the box.

 

[Eagle1]

The good, sharp techs that are motivated know how to interpret these issues and the others simply shotgun. I think we very likely have a lot of shotgunners out there.

B I N G O

 

[dstig1]

The good, sharp techs that are motivated know how to interpret these issues and the others simply shotgun. I think we very likely have a lot of shotgunners out there.

Otherwise known as Parts Swapping Monkeys...

 

[rScotty]

I would really like to buy a new tractor in the future but I am very hesitant because of things mentioned in this post. I am not a mechanic and don't want to become one. I do however want equipment where I can utilize friends that are mechanics to help and not be beholden to a dealer to fix things on their timeline when I am broke down. Then worry about the manufacturer not holding up their end on warranty.

A buddy of mine was talking new boats and brought up that boats manufactured in the last 2 years have lost the quality and are having lots of littles issues here and there. When you pay 50 to 60 grand for anything, you should not be worrying about parts failing and coming apart/rusting, etc. within a few hours of use. I have read on here numerous times where folks buy a new tractor and have to have it worked on several times to get it to run right. That should not be the case ands in my opinion "unacceptable". We should be able to buy a new tractor and not have to worry about a dealer if the equipment is put together correctly.

I know this next statement has nothing to do with dealers/tractors but we have a sister church in Ohio that has been there for a long time. They have a playground that was built by the depression era folks who were all tradesmen. Machinist/Tool and Die/Welders, etc. That playground is probably 50 years old and built to stand the test of time. My big but can sit or climb on any of it and it does not move. I am always impressed when I see it. I believe we have lost that desire to build things to last. I also believe all of this new "technology" is making us less resilient and when it does break you are screwed. I deal with this everyday for my line of work. Call the "Help Desk", and hear there are 97 callers ahead of you!!!! No wonder we can't get anything done.

It seems that buying a good used tractor from 10 or 20 years ago - or more - when things were made to be owner serviced & repaired would answer all of your concerns. There are lots of those good used ones out there. In fact, they are all still out there, they are still young by tractor standards, and they will do all the same work in the same way with the same accessories and comfort as newer ones.

The only things that have changed technologically in the tractor world in the last 40 years has been a movement by manufacturers to make dealer service a necessity instead of an option, and also the addition of more emission controls. Those changes are not advantages to the owner. And other than those things, tractors are pretty much unchanged for decades now.

So I'm puzzled. Why would you even consider buying new?
rScotty

 

[WVH1977]

It seems that buying a good used tractor from 10 or 20 years ago - or more - when things were made to be owner serviced & repaired would answer all of your concerns. There are lots of those good used ones out there. In fact, they are all still out there, they are still young by tractor standards, and they will do all the same work in the same way with the same accessories and comfort as newer ones.

The only things that have changed technologically in the tractor world in the last 40 years has been a movement by manufacturers to make dealer service a necessity instead of an option, and also the addition of more emission controls. Those changes are not advantages to the owner. And other than those things, tractors are pretty much unchanged for decades now.

So I'm puzzled. Why would you even consider buying new?
rScotty

I have always liked buying equipment new, but as I get older that viewpoint is changing. I guess the biggest benefit for buying new is it is easier to finance and I would be the only owner and I would know the complete history on the equipment. There should be nothing wrong with wanting to buy new but based on this thread it gives me and maybe others pause to do so based on the issues the OP has had. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Also, used is an expensive option when you want to buy a machine in good shape. Most older tractors (10 to 20 years old) I am interested in (New Holland TC55) for example in good shape with decent hours is around 23 to 25 grand and up. This has led me to look at new as well. Tractors for me in the 40 year old category are not as comfortable to operate as the newer ones. Example is my Uncles 1979 Ford 3600. it is in good shape but no shuttle shift, sits lower, louder, no nice foot platform room, no gas pedal, not as easy to see over the front of tractor, etc. To me tractors have changed a lot in 40 years. Maybe not engine/transmission wise but ergonomics, comfort and drivability has developed drastically over the years.

I do understand where you are coming from and agree with a lot of what you have said. That is why I have stated, based on this thread and troubles the OP is having has given me a pause in considering new going forward. Quality is not what it used to be and used is probably going to be the way to go.

 

[rScotty]

I have always liked buying equipment new, but as I get older that viewpoint is changing. I guess the biggest benefit for buying new is it is easier to finance and I would be the only owner and I would know the complete history on the equipment. There should be nothing wrong with wanting to buy new but based on this thread it gives me and maybe others pause to do so based on the issues the OP has had. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Also, used is an expensive option when you want to buy a machine in good shape. Most older tractors (10 to 20 years old) I am interested in (New Holland TC55) for example in good shape with decent hours is around 23 to 25 grand and up. This has led me to look at new as well. Tractors for me in the 40 year old category are not as comfortable to operate as the newer ones. Example is my Uncles 1979 Ford 3600. it is in good shape but no shuttle shift, sits lower, louder, no nice foot platform room, no gas pedal, not as easy to see over the front of tractor, etc. To me tractors have changed a lot in 40 years. Maybe not engine/transmission wise but ergonomics, comfort and drivability has developed drastically over the years.

I do understand where you are coming from and agree with a lot of what you have said. That is why I have stated, based on this thread and troubles the OP is having has given me a pause in considering new going forward. Quality is not what it used to be and used is probably going to be the way to go.

OK. It's the same way I feel.

The way I look at anything that I would consider buying used is that I will only look at those belonging to real careful machine guy - and those machines typically come with literature, service records, and any special tool/accessories. Add those things in with proven performance on a machine maintained for 1500 hrs but which was designed to go 7000, and I think that it is worth pretty close to new price.
My belief is that the market expectations are way too low & really good quality used equipment is a bargain compared with new. Even when it is 90% of new price.

Ask any of your mechanical friends if they agree. I bet they all do.

Yes, I hear you on the old Ford 3600. I don't know if Ford made a more comfortable upgraded model 40 years ago, but many companies did. At that time the more luxurious models of tools like tractors didn't sell as well as the economy models without the convenience features. But there were upgraded models made with all those features even all those years ago. Not many, but they are still out there. You just have to look for them.

An example of a nice compromise I'm talking about would be that TC48 or TC55 you like. It was built right at the end of the height of the good mechanical era, has a shuttle shift transmission, power everything, a nice operator platform, no emissions, and one of the best engines ever. Add a Grammar 12 volt pneumatically suspended seat and some attachments front and rear and frankly it would be hard to beat on the new market today.
If I found the right used TC55 with 1500 hrs on it and all the records I'd be comfortable paying the seller whatever he had in it.

rScotty

 

[ultrarunner]

It seems that buying a good used tractor from 10 or 20 years ago - or more - when things were made to be owner serviced & repaired would answer all of your concerns. There are lots of those good used ones out there. In fact, they are all still out there, they are still young by tractor standards, and they will do all the same work in the same way with the same accessories and comfort as newer ones.

The only things that have changed technologically in the tractor world in the last 40 years has been a movement by manufacturers to make dealer service a necessity instead of an option, and also the addition of more emission controls. Those changes are not advantages to the owner. And other than those things, tractors are pretty much unchanged for decades now.

So I'm puzzled. Why would you even consider buying new?
rScotty

All of the above true unless your intended use is business... at least here.

Contractors have had to dump or repower fleets of off road diesel powered equipment from tractors to chippers... actually bolstered value of the equivalent gasoline powered equipment such as chippers.

AG is a little bit of a gray area but even irrigation pumps and generators are targeted...

 

[AndyMA]

I've been with the same dealer for about 50 years. I have no issue getting competent service. Just had my MX rebuild after having a tree fall on it

Andy

 

[scaredychicken]

I'm glsd that things are getting resolved for MHarryE. Thank you for the Follow Up Notes, I appreciate that.


I have ONLY had my BX23S for coming up 4 yrs. That said, I have had no complaints about my Kubota dealer and have known them for 40 years.

Tenant was doing some tractor work 2 yrs ago, and tipped the tractor on it's side. Thankfully, no injuries. I then determined that tenant was NOT as qualified as stated ... ie 30 years of farming, tractor experience, fencing etc. Keys remain with me now.

The Dealer's service tech came to the property a few days later, checked the tractor thoroughly and then dragged it back to the shop, an hour away. For a day or two we were on the fence about a Repair or a Claim. Ultimately, I made an insurance claim on that matter. At the end of the day it was a $12,000.00 insurance claim, with only a $250 deductible as I recall. It took 4 months to settle the claim and repair, that was reasonable under the circumstances, but I have a hobby farm so not requiring it daily for income etc. The tractor came back with full repairs and a brand new engine... the only hint that it was the same tractor were the custom fabrications from day one, and a few scuff marks on the FEL. Good Machine, Good Dealer, Don't want to go through that again.

 

[5030]

Moral of the story there is, never let anyone use a tractor unless qualified.

 

[rScotty]

All of the above true unless your intended use is business... at least here.

Contractors have had to dump or repower fleets of off road diesel powered equipment from tractors to chippers... actually bolstered value of the equivalent gasoline powered equipment such as chippers.

AG is a little bit of a gray area but even irrigation pumps and generators are targeted...

Yes, that's interesting. We've all heard about California's policy requiring replacing old style engines with new ones, but I don't think the other 49 states take it very seriously. It sounds far-fetched and questionably effective. Certainly there is doesn't seem to be talk about other states following suit - even among enviromentalists. California politics are unique.

My own feeling is mandating engine swaps seems to be a politically-driven policy designed to increase profit to dealers and industry rather than any advantage in emissions reductions. Plus, it's arguable whether California got their total emissions arithmetic right.
I haven't seen a detailed accounting, but I suspect the eco-benefit is small if it exists at all.

rScotty

 

[5030]

Yes, that's interesting. We've all heard about California's policy requiring replacing old style engines with new ones, but I don't think the other 49 states take it very seriously. It sounds far-fetched and questionably effective. Certainly there is doesn't seem to be talk about other states following suit - even among enviromentalists. California politics are unique.

My own feeling is mandating engine swaps seems to be a politically-driven policy designed to increase profit to dealers and industry rather than any advantage in emissions reductions. Plus, it's arguable whether California got their total emissions arithmetic right.
I haven't seen a detailed accounting, but I suspect the eco-benefit is small if it exists at all.

rScotty

Actually Scotty, Kubota's policy is, if you 'lunch an engine and it has to be replaced, they require the dealer to make the old one inoperative as in breaking the block with a sledge hammer. I don't know if the replacement engine has to be a more emissions compliant one or not however. Seen that play out and the dealership I work at part time... Never blown one up so I cannot say for sure and I don't want to. New engines are expensive...

 

[ultrarunner]

Doing work in the city it has become a big deal for backhoes, dump trucks, chippers, graders, etc...

Some of the biggest firms now only lease...

Small mom.and pops folded like my friends... All bought new equipment meticulously maintained rendered obsolete but ok to be sold out if state... even legal to get a one way trip permit to the Stateline.

AG does have some wiggle room.

I have Onan Cummins Prime Mover Hospital Generators circa 1995 and the click is ticking... 600 hours and soon no longer legal to operate... and the annual permit and monitoring costs continue to increase... someone has to come out to read the hour meter...

 

[rScotty]

Actually Scotty, Kubota's policy is, if you 'lunch an engine and it has to be replaced, they require the dealer to make the old one inoperative as in breaking the block with a sledge hammer. I don't know if the replacement engine has to be a more emissions compliant one or not however. Seen that play out and the dealership I work at part time... Never blown one up so I cannot say for sure and I don't want to. New engines are expensive...

5030, I think we may be talking about two different types of repair/replacement. From what I recall from previous postings here on TBN, the California requirement was originally going to go farther than just repairing or replacing a vintage engine with the same unit. Now that California's policy has been in force for awhile, maybe Ultrarunner can fill us in on how it works. From his sig line, he seems to be have a few old beaters.
rScotty

 

[ultrarunner]

It's a phase out of non compliant diesel power begining at 25hp.

It really hit non compliant over the road tractors doing business with the ports... no emission certification no entry.

Municipalities have been getting rid of non compliant diesel power as the regs phase in.

Some can be retrofitted or repowered but many the decision was simple... retire out it state or off shore.

The ban on two-stroke is different but affects other segments and then many items such as mowers generators cannot be sold here...

I don't think it is going away and with the ban on ICE passenger sales in the future the legislature has spoken...

 

[5030]

ICE passenger sales in the future the legislature has spoken...

Again, I won't be around when that all transpires anyway.

 

[5030]

he seems to be have a few old beaters.

Both my Kubota's could be classified as vintage or 'beaters' but neither one is beat, just old as in 2002 and 2004. I keep them in tip top condition, they lead a pampered life. They both should outlast me.

 

[Hay Dude]

It seems that buying a good used tractor from 10 or 20 years ago - or more - when things were made to be owner serviced & repaired would answer all of your concerns. There are lots of those good used ones out there. In fact, they are all still out there, they are still young by tractor standards, and they will do all the same work in the same way with the same accessories and comfort as newer ones.

The only things that have changed technologically in the tractor world in the last 40 years has been a movement by manufacturers to make dealer service a necessity instead of an option, and also the addition of more emission controls. Those changes are not advantages to the owner. And other than those things, tractors are pretty much unchanged for decades now.

So I'm puzzled. Why would you even consider buying new?
rScotty

Thats exactly what I do.
Early 2000’s-2012 tractors have lots of creature comforts, yet don’t have the extreme complexity of the ones built after 2012

 

[rScotty]

Thats exactly what I do.
Early 2000’s-2012 tractors have lots of creature comforts, yet don’t have the extreme complexity of the ones built after 2012

And that's also exactly what I do. Mine are all pre-2012 and I simply maintain them and use then within their specs. They are worked but not stressed. I expect they will all outlast me and would be astounded if one broke.

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they last just as well for the next generation. No reason why not.
rScotty

 

[5030]

It appears to me that manufacturers are making them more and more complex just so you cannot fix them without professional intervention. JD seems to be very guilty of that today. The main reason why I don't want one of the new electronic controlled tractors. Bad enough dealing with that on automobiles but, at least with cars, you can access the electronic controls with the industry standard OBD connector and a good scan tool. Not so with tractors. Every make has a unique connector and the standard OBD scanner won't work.