Groundsmaster 52 runs 10 minutes, then dies

[dlapierre]

Tractor is a Toro Groundsmaster 52 with 16HP Briggs L head cast iron engine, 32000 series. Manufactured back in 1980. The problem is, it runs and cuts fine for approximately ten minutes, then dies. I can interrupt the dying by choking the engine and it comes back to life. But, only for a few seconds. Then it dies again. Choking again before it totally shuts down and it comes back to life. This is a rinse and repeat thing until I limp back to the garage with it. Let it sit for an hour or longer, and it starts up, runs fine and cuts grass for another ten minutes. Then the cycle repeats. Does this sound like a coil going bad? Or, due to the fact I can choke it back to running before it completely dies, is it a fuel issue?

I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the carburetor, replaced the fuel lines, replaced the fuel pump, and with no change from doing that, have pulled the fuel tank and cleaned it out as well. Still no change. Oh yeah, I replaced the condenser for good measure.

I was of the understanding that a faulty coil would shut the engine down once it was hot, but then would not restart at all until the engine was totally cooled down. Or, will a failing coil cause the engine to die, but allow it to come back to life by quickly choking it as described above? I am leaving the coil replacement as a last resort due to it requiring the entire engine to be pulled from the tractor in order to access it. The ten minutes having to elapse before the problem arises leads me to think it is a heat related issue, most likely the coil. Anybody here had a similar problem with a cast iron horizontal shaft briggs?

Vvm

 

[dlapierre]

Same thing happened to me and I did all the things suggested, including putting in a new fuel pump. But, the second time my son took the fuel tank off and checked the fuel valve on the tank closely, he found a small filter about the size of a narrow straw in diameter in the valve that was partially plugged. It let some fuel through, but not enough to sustain a draw from the fuel pump.

 

[Gem99ultra]

I too, think it's a fuel issue, possibly: wrong filter, filter installed backward, or collapsing fuel line. Just in case though, I'd probably get an inline spark checker handy and check for spark as soon as the engine quits running next time. My spark checker came from Harbor Freight and I love it. They're $3.99 and $4.99.

I think stuckmotor hit the nail right on its head. I've had the very same symptoms with my lawn mower after installing a new fuel filter in backwards.

Flip the filter around and see...

 

[Gord Baker]

You have done all the right things IMHO. Is there possibly a tiny screen in the carb at fuel line inlet?
Taking the load off the engine is puzzling too, since it then regains RPM. Doubtful you have a water problem. I would change needle and seat after a serious carb soak. Good Luck.

 

[hanie cole]

Are you able to run a temporary rubber fuel line to the carb from a gallon jug hung above the carb? This will tell you if the pulse pump is the culprit. I had an Argo with a B&S engine that had those same symptoms and found out the pump couldn't keep up after warm up. You could nurse it with the choke but it wouldn't have any power till you let it cool. Then it would run normally till it got hot again.

 

[kwbobwi]

I was told to never run E10or any ethanol blend in older equipment, I only run Premium in my power equipment including a 1970 rototiller.

 

[stuckmotor]

I think stuckmotor hit the nail right on its head. I've had the very same symptoms with my lawn mower after installing a new fuel filter in backwards.

Flip the filter around and see...

I had similar symptoms when I put a see through filter on a Snapper. When I replaced it with a tiny red original equipment filter, the problem went away. The Snapper has a gravity flow fuel system.
A YouTube mechanic explained that a fuel pump is required to pull fuel through some clear filters at a sufficient rate to keep the mower running. The OP's mower has a pump so I don't think it's problem has exactly the same cause as mine.

 

[Little Red Tractor]

Probably a long shot, but...is the carb tight to the engine? That could cause the same symptoms once it gets warm...and the symptoms would subside when it cools down. I had a motorcycle engine do this.

 

[JD4102004]

Tractor is a Toro Groundsmaster 52 with 16HP Briggs L head cast iron engine, 32000 series. Manufactured back in 1980. The problem is, it runs and cuts fine for approximately ten minutes, then dies. I can interrupt the dying by choking the engine and it comes back to life. But, only for a few seconds. Then it dies again. Choking again before it totally shuts down and it comes back to life. This is a rinse and repeat thing until I limp back to the garage with it. Let it sit for an hour or longer, and it starts up, runs fine and cuts grass for another ten minutes. Then the cycle repeats. Does this sound like a coil going bad? Or, due to the fact I can choke it back to running before it completely dies, is it a fuel issue?

I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the carburetor, replaced the fuel lines, replaced the fuel pump, and with no change from doing that, have pulled the fuel tank and cleaned it out as well. Still no change. Oh yeah, I replaced the condenser for good measure.

I was of the understanding that a faulty coil would shut the engine down once it was hot, but then would not restart at all until the engine was totally cooled down. Or, will a failing coil cause the engine to die, but allow it to come back to life by quickly choking it as described above? I am leaving the coil replacement as a last resort due to it requiring the entire engine to be pulled from the tractor in order to access it. The ten minutes having to elapse before the problem arises leads me to think it is a heat related issue, most likely the coil. Anybody here had a similar problem with a cast iron horizontal shaft briggs?

Vvm

I would be willing to betthe condenser is bad. I had exactly the same problem with an Onan on a Miller Welder 2 weeks ago. We tried all the things you did to no avail. Since I had seen this problem before I took the condenser and had it checked, sure enough it was bad. New condenser and going strong now.

 

[CADplans]

I was told to never run E10or any ethanol blend in older equipment, I only run Premium in my power equipment including a 1970 rototiller.

Premium fuel is just a waste of $$$$ in small engines, because the compression is too low to take advantage of the fuel.
Now, if the premium you are buying is ZERO ethanol, then, it is worth buying.

Some places only carry premium zero ethanol,, others sell 87 octane zero ethanol.

But,, 93 octane (or even 91 octane) is a waste unless the manual specifically says to use the higher octane.

 

[LLIHKAO]

Tractor is a Toro Groundsmaster 52 with 16HP Briggs L head cast iron engine, 32000 series. Manufactured back in 1980. The problem is, it runs and cuts fine for approximately ten minutes, then dies. I can interrupt the dying by choking the engine and it comes back to life. But, only for a few seconds. Then it dies again. Choking again before it totally shuts down and it comes back to life. This is a rinse and repeat thing until I limp back to the garage with it. Let it sit for an hour or longer, and it starts up, runs fine and cuts grass for another ten minutes. Then the cycle repeats. Does this sound like a coil going bad? Or, due to the fact I can choke it back to running before it completely dies, is it a fuel issue?

I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the carburetor, replaced the fuel lines, replaced the fuel pump, and with no change from doing that, have pulled the fuel tank and cleaned it out as well. Still no change. Oh yeah, I replaced the condenser for good measure.

I was of the understanding that a faulty coil would shut the engine down once it was hot, but then would not restart at all until the engine was totally cooled down. Or, will a failing coil cause the engine to die, but allow it to come back to life by quickly choking it as described above? I am leaving the coil replacement as a last resort due to it requiring the entire engine to be pulled from the tractor in order to access it. The ten minutes having to elapse before the problem arises leads me to think it is a heat related issue, most likely the coil. Anybody here had a similar problem with a cast iron horizontal shaft briggs?

Vvm

 

[easymike]

Tractor is a Toro Groundsmaster 52 with 16HP Briggs L head cast iron engine, 32000 series. Manufactured back in 1980. The problem is, it runs and cuts fine for approximately ten minutes, then dies. I can interrupt the dying by choking the engine and it comes back to life. But, only for a few seconds. Then it dies again. Choking again before it totally shuts down and it comes back to life. This is a rinse and repeat thing until I limp back to the garage with it. Let it sit for an hour or longer, and it starts up, runs fine and cuts grass for another ten minutes. Then the cycle repeats. Does this sound like a coil going bad? Or, due to the fact I can choke it back to running before it completely dies, is it a fuel issue?

I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the carburetor, replaced the fuel lines, replaced the fuel pump, and with no change from doing that, have pulled the fuel tank and cleaned it out as well. Still no change. Oh yeah, I replaced the condenser for good measure.

I was of the understanding that a faulty coil would shut the engine down once it was hot, but then would not restart at all until the engine was totally cooled down. Or, will a failing coil cause the engine to die, but allow it to come back to life by quickly choking it as described above? I am leaving the coil replacement as a last resort due to it requiring the entire engine to be pulled from the tractor in order to access it. The ten minutes having to elapse before the problem arises leads me to think it is a heat related issue, most likely the coil. Anybody here had a similar problem with a cast iron horizontal shaft briggs?

Vvm

Sounds like you have broken baffles inside your muffler . They move around and then block the exhaust off and it stalls. Been threw this many times . Put your hand over exhaust and you can feel the lack of exhaust flow out.
Easymike

 

[LLIHKAO]

Food for thought, I had a Husqvarna riding mower that did the same thing. I pulled my hair out until my uncle came down to help me diagnose the problem. What we found was the spring that holds the needle valve up in the carburetor, that allows gas to flow into the cylinder, would heat up and lose its tension, thus allowing the needle valve to fall down and shut off the gas supply. After the mower would sit for a while, the spring would cool down and regain its tension allowing the mower to run for a while until the spring warmed up again causing the mower to die. Replaced the spring and the needle valve and all was working the way it should. Hope this helps.

 

[JD4102004]

I might

Tractor is a Toro Groundsmaster 52 with 16HP Briggs L head cast iron engine, 32000 series. Manufactured back in 1980. The problem is, it runs and cuts fine for approximately ten minutes, then dies. I can interrupt the dying by choking the engine and it comes back to life. But, only for a few seconds. Then it dies again. Choking again before it totally shuts down and it comes back to life. This is a rinse and repeat thing until I limp back to the garage with it. Let it sit for an hour or longer, and it starts up, runs fine and cuts grass for another ten minutes. Then the cycle repeats. Does this sound like a coil going bad? Or, due to the fact I can choke it back to running before it completely dies, is it a fuel issue?

I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the carburetor, replaced the fuel lines, replaced the fuel pump, and with no change from doing that, have pulled the fuel tank and cleaned it out as well. Still no change. Oh yeah, I replaced the condenser for good measure.

I was of the understanding that a faulty coil would shut the engine down once it was hot, but then would not restart at all until the engine was totally cooled down. Or, will a failing coil cause the engine to die, but allow it to come back to life by quickly choking it as described above? I am leaving the coil replacement as a last resort due to it requiring the entire engine to be pulled from the tractor in order to access it. The ten minutes having to elapse before the problem arises leads me to think it is a heat related issue, most likely the coil. Anybody here had a similar problem with a cast iron horizontal shaft briggs?

Vvm

I might add that the coil could act in a similar way, that is short out when it gets hot, but I would first suspect the condenser.

 

[MossRoad]

I might

I might add that the coil could act in a similar way, that is short out when it gets hot, but I would first suspect the condenser.

Why would adjusting the choke make a coil or condenser problem go away?

 

[BeezFun]

It would help to get more diagnostic info. Can you attach a voltmeter to the 12v input to the coil and keep it on your lap while you're driving. That would tell you the next time it starts to die whether you have a constant 12v to the coil. The problem with electronic issues is they are intermittent, so you stop to adjust the choke and think that's what made a difference, but really the electronics just started working again. I assume you have one of those little diaphragm fuel pumps, if you could attach a pressure gauge to the output of that to monitor while you drive that would also help eliminate the fuel as an issue.

Another device to check (if you have one) is the inclinometer safety switch that will turn the engine off if the machine tips sideways too far. It's a solid state device, and they experience intermittent failures that mysteriously come and go.

 

[Tony H]

Here's what I'm thinking... It happened to me on two machines. Look at the rubber needle valve seat in the carburetor. On one engine, the hole in the seat was slightly misshaped. This caused the fuel to run into the bowl very slowly. So the engine would start and run fine. The bowl couldn't fill up fast enough so , under load, it would starve. Lower the idle and it would stay alive. Put a load on and it would eventually starve again. Kind of like your wife stopping with the blades still running. Out of gear reduced the load.
2nd issue was that the Seat dropped down from the carb a bit. This would cause a starving issue under load because the needle valve would shut gas from entering the bowl way too early. Any load and the gas flow couldn't keep up. Check the Seat.

 

[JD4102004]

Why would adjusting the choke make a coil or condenser problem go away?

I can't explain that but it did help on mine too. give the condenser a try . It is a cheap fix if it is that. We tried everything that you did and nothing worked but the condenser.

 

[Tony H]

Volvoman,

Based on your initial description of "I have replaced the fuel filter, cleaned the carburetor, replaced the fuel lines, replaced the fuel pump, and with no change from doing that, have pulled the fuel tank and cleaned it out as well. Still no change. Oh yeah, I replaced the condenser for good measure" it would appear you have done everything to eliminate a lack of quality fuel getting to the float bowl and eliminated water in fuel system. The fact that it runs for approx 10 minutes and then begins to stumble/ die and can be revived by closing the choke some points to incorrect fuel/ air mix ( lean ). I suspect the engine is running until float bowl is drawn down to point the fuel/air leans out and it stumbles.

I would go back to installing the fuel shut off in line, if possible, as near to carb as you can. That way you can shut the valve when it stumbles and verify gas level in float bowl at your leisure. If bowl is full or full enough float is closing inlet then fuel is NOT the problem. If fuel low then go back thru fuel delivery system again making no assumptions while doing so.

Bingo! As soon as engine stumbles close valve. Then see how much gas runs of of fuel bowl, IF any.

 

[Tony H]

Premium fuel is just a waste of $$$$ in small engines, because the compression is too low to take advantage of the fuel.
Now, if the premium you are buying is ZERO ethanol, then, it is worth buying.

Some places only carry premium zero ethanol,, others sell 87 octane zero ethanol.

But,, 93 octane (or even 91 octane) is a waste unless the manual specifically says to use the higher octane.

Rubber parts in older engines cannot handle the alcohol.