Beware: kioti backhoe HORRIBLE departure angle ck2610 kb2475l

[Root Cause]

If you cut it, you own it. There is something amiss. Either they installed some wrong parts or inverted something. The center post angle is proof enough to say something is wrong.

A vague complaint may fall on deaf ears so I would find the manuf. spec for clearance. Call direct or go to their website and find it. Then measure the difference.
While at it, I would get the part numbers to all the critical parts to verify what's what.
I wouldn't just settle for something not useable.


If it is significantly different, then you have hard proof and it will be difficult not to agree.

 

[erikjohn67]

Definitely sounds frustrating but why don’t you just back it onto the trailer?

 

[LittleBill21]

Definitely sounds frustrating but why don’t you just back it onto the trailer?

he will have the same issue, forward or back, unless his ramps can get to the tires before he hits the trailer

 

[orangetree]

I’ve never liked the Kioti backhoe subframe. It’s a clumsy design to save 5 minutes work to remove the 3 point arms IMO. Even having to remove the arms Kubota probably still wins in total hookup time because it drops straight on the back vs having to align the frame under the front of the tractor. Also my Kubota backhoe still scraped going on or off my trailer. Sticking the hoe a foot farther back is only going to make that worse.

yeah, i looked at both; I may have been pushed to the Kubota had I realized this exit angle, but in all the other respects the kioti system is fine / has it's advantages:

• faster to install/remove (no doubt it could be done faster than the 20 min this guy took
  , but it's still multiple bolts & pins to re-attach the arms. The connection to the subframe itself, though, is very nice on the kubota
• stronger: while the subframe does reduce clearance under the frame on the kioti, it also spreads the BH load from being born by the frame. I have no idea if that matters - but I have seen enough TBN comments saying you can break a small CUT with over agressive BH use ... Does it actually matter? I can't say for sure.

 

[orangetree]

The root cause, I think I agree, is this:

Looks like an oversized backhoe retro-fitted onto a smaller tractor.

and suspiciously absent from the KB2475l manual itself is the smallest model ck2610:

 

[orangetree]

Definitely sounds frustrating but why don’t you just back it onto the trailer?

this is _fully_ impossible, unfortunately (first thing i tried).

The frame of the backhoe / stabilizer arms is nearly as wide as the track, and only slightly front & up from the kingpin - eg maybe a foot off the ground, and 4' aft of the axles. It physically impacts the rams well before the back wheels reach the ramps.

 

[orangetree]

If it were mine I would cut off that upper tubing bolted to the hoe flush with the bottom tubing. Raise the hoe up and set it back a foot and weld it back together. You would have to remove the 3pt but that would get you closer to the tractor and higher off the ground.

If you cut it, you own it. There is something amiss. Either they installed some wrong parts or inverted something. The center post angle is proof enough to say something is wrong.

Yeah, the design actually looks pretty straightforward to do a mod like this ... begs the question why it wasn't done like this with a different subframe. I don't even think you'd need to remove the links if you just added a few inches. But no way to do this in warranty, for sure.

 

[California]

The root cause, I think I agree, is this:

and suspiciously absent from the KB2475l manual itself is the smallest model ck2610:

View attachment 742520

View attachment 742519

I see angle of departure ('K' in the diagram) listed as 21 degrees in that manual. What is the actual on this tractor?

 

[orangetree]

I see angle of departure ('K' in the diagram) listed as 21 degrees in that manual. What is the actual on this tractor?

Around 10 degrees

 

[deezler]

Yeah it is certainly a somewhat ridiculous backhoe/subframe design. A full 6-8" longer than needed, and for what, exactly? To not remove the 3-pt arms? Shoot, even leaving the 3-pt arms on, you could slide the backhoe 6" towards the tractor. I had the same thought to cut, shorten it, and re-weld with sleeved tubing.

The backhoe is quite heavy, just about a thousand pounds. It does kinda suck having it lever on the tractor way back there. But it sure makes a reliable counterweight for loader work!

That said, mine drives on an off of my 20' car hauler trailer just fine. My deck height is low and ramp angle pretty shallow. I've only done it once, though.

 

[orangetree]

even leaving the 3-pt arms on, you could slide the backhoe 6" towards the tractor. I had the same thought to cut, shorten it, and re-weld with sleeved tubing.
...
That said, mine drives on an off of my 20' car hauler trailer just fine. My deck height is low and ramp angle pretty shallow.

would you mind sharing your departure angle?

If, on level ground, you just measure the height/clearance at the bottom of the kingpin bracket, then the angle is a little less than arctan(kingpin" / 54") (a little less, because the contact patch on the tire is a little aft of the actual axle; but close enough)

 

[deezler]

Sure, I'll try to remember to take a measurement for you in my garage tonight. If I'm lucky and sneak in some seat time tonight, I'll try it both with nothing on the SSQA and the loader arms on the ground, vs having a full bucket of soil in the front loader.

 

[deezler]

The other gripe about the backhoe subframe is how much it kills the ground clearance and breakover angle. I've gotten stuck in soft sand that I was digging a couple times, due to beaching the subframe and losing traction with my rear tires. Have to use the loader and backhoe to drag yourself out; not real fun.

 

[Amvcane]

good luck

 

[orangetree]

EDIT1: waiting for clarification from @Amvcane but as his sig states & @Midniteoyl points out, DK -> CK3510 is the likely model. This is identical (including in tires) to my CK2610, just with a bigger engine. Specs on Kioti's site show same length, wheelbase, and most everything except HP&weight

My KB2475 manual has the exact same pages above, except "backhoe model" is KB2475 and "tractor model" is DK35. All specs, same as above.

what a bummer. there is a HUGE difference between subframes for the same tractor over time in the kb2475 and kb2475L (EDIT2), they keep getting significantly longer apparently. Your kb2475 actually looks a lot like I'd expect mine to have been designed, or end up if i keep it & modify it post-warranty. Close to rear axle, diagonal bracing steeper.

[EDIT2: deezler and amvcane have the same tractor (CK3510se), but 6 inches difference in kingpin->axle per tape-measure and confirmed in pictures later in thread; and between them have both kb2475/kb2475L afaict]

@Amvcane would you mind measuring the distance from the bottom of the kingpin bushing->ground, and kingpin->rearAxle? Assuming our rear links are the same length, your horizontal distance looks closer to 3.5' than my 4.5'.

One thing that looks to be different between our rigs is actual tire diameter. online says you dk35 w/ r4's(?) =12.4-24=45.5"diam, whereas my ck2610 with r4's =11.2x24=42.5"diam. DK35 is 1.5" more ground clearance vs CK2610


2021 CK2610 w/ KB2475L

Nothing mechanical going on that would prevent it from being moved ~8" back or several inches up. I'd likely need new 1/2" steel diagonals, and some additional lap/reinforement on the subframe; but man this is stupid of Kioti as-is.

 

[Midniteoyl]

what a bummer. there is a HUGE difference between subframes in the kb2475 and kb2475L, apparently. Your kb2475 actually looks a lot like I'd expect mine to have been designed, or end up if i keep it & modify it post-warranty. Close to rear axle, diagonal bracing steeper.

@Amvcane would you mind measuring the distance from the bottom of the kingpin bushing->ground, and kingpin->rearAxle? Assuming our rear links are the same length, your horizontal distance looks closer to 3.5' than my 4.5'.

One thing that looks to be different between our rigs is actual tire diameter. online says you dk35 w/ r4's(?) =12.4-24=45.5"diam, whereas my ck2610 with r4's =11.2x24=42.5"diam. DK35 is 1.5" more ground clearance vs CK2610


2021 CK2610 w/ KB2475L
View attachment 742589

Nothing mechanical going on that would prevent it from being moved ~8" back or several inches up. I'd likely need new 1/2" steel diagonals, and some additional lap/reinforement on the subframe; but man this is stupid of Kioti as-is.
View attachment 742591

His is a CK35. Not sure what they changed mounting wise, but it does look to be different. With yours lower and farther rearward.

Are you sure you have the correct subframe?

 

[orangetree]

His is a CK35. Not sure what they changed mounting wise, but it does look to be different. With yours lower and farther rearward.

Are you sure you have the correct subframe?

Good catch, thank you @Midniteoyl - unless @Amvcane clarifies he really meant DK, you're correct it's the exact same frame, tires, etc as mine. Clearly a different subframe. Being new, I was able to find the sticker hidden behind the wheel.

Hopefully the serial `201101xxx` refers to 2020-11-01, not 2011 . So assuming it's labeled correctly, seems like "correct" part.

Can't see any logic to the design change between Amvcane's 2012 unit and my 2021 (apparently the `L` in kb2475 vs kb2475L)

 

[orangetree]

@Amvcane could you confirm you're pic is of your CK3510se-hst?

If so, what's the size of your kb2475's "cockpit"? Searching for the response my dealer is going to give on why my subframe shouldn't look like yours (like some other design change between 2012->2021 that now 'requires' the BH to be offset further aft.

34" between the metal bracket around the fuel tank, and the toe plate / business-end.

At its current vertical level, the seat only clears the tank by 3-4 inches. BUT it could be moved forward by 3 inches as-is. A more workable solution for me would be to modify the seat to be higher, as I'm tall. But still, 6-8 inches easily could be found in the current design, more if the hoe and/or seat is raised.

 

[ptsg]

@Amvcane could you confirm you're pic is of your CK3510se-hst?

If so, what's the size of your kb2475's "cockpit"? Searching for the response my dealer is going to give on why my subframe shouldn't look like yours (like some other design change between 2012->2021 that now 'requires' the BH to be offset further aft.

34" between the metal bracket around the fuel tank, and the toe plate / business-end.
View attachment 742626

At its current vertical level, the seat only clears the tank by 3-4 inches. BUT it could be moved forward by 3 inches as-is. A more workable solution for me would be to modify the seat to be higher, as I'm tall. But still, 6-8 inches easily could be found in the current design, more if the hoe and/or seat is raised.
View attachment 742627

Could be that the CK2610 uses smaller tires than the bigger/higher HP CK models and therefore make everything lower? Just guessing here because on the Branson line up, they have the same situation with the 15 series that can go from 25 HP to 48HP in the same chassis but the 25 hp model gets smaller tires due to less HP.

 

[mikester]

That isn't a selling point for sure. Looks like an oversized backhoe retro-fitted onto a smaller tractor. Not saying it is, but it looks like something done to save the OEM from designing a proper one.

Fits like a chicken's foot in a sock.

The better designed one is called a mini-excavator.

The BH's sold for SCUTS are designed to fill a niche market for people demanding

expecting one of these

so it will fit in the corner of their garage. What they really want is this