A solar powered generator?

[ponytug]

It doesn't matter whether it's gas or battery operated. Once a car fire starts, there is plenty of other flammable materials to keep it going.

That's why my whole house backup batteries aren't attached to the house, (bolted to a concrete wall, surrounded by concrete). I don't keep any solvents in the garage, most of my solvents and fuels are in a fireproof locker, and almost all of them are in metal containers. I do have a push to dispense 1.25gal plastic gas can for refilling the chainsaw; the metal ones were just too messy during refueling.

We live in a wild land fire zone. Some things are just prudent given the baseline risk of fire here. YMMV, of course.

I will say that having batteries backed up by solar has been great.

All the best,

Peter

 

[dmccarty]

...

That said, yes, there is a tremendous amount of energy in lithium ion batteries, both in charge and flammable electrolyte, but nothing compared to a gasoline tank. Still, while the lithium ion batteries are quite difficult to ignite, they will burn for some time. (The Tesla batteries meet UL9540A which is a tough standard wherein even the failure of several cells shouldn't cause a "runaway thermal event", aka fire.)

So, don't go popping them with your 12ga, ok?

I think that fear of the unknown often colors our decision making. We all have experience with gasoline tanks, and think that these days automobile caused gasoline fires in garages aren't common events. Yet, the actual rate of gasoline vehicle fires is about ten times that of electric vehicles. https://www.crsautomotive.com/how-prone-are-electric-cars-to-catching-fire/ There are on the order of 6-7,000 garage fires per year in the US, but most (surprise!) are caused by household electrical wiring, often enhanced by flammable stored in the garage.
...

The problem with a lithium fueled fire vs gasoline, is that the fire department has a chance to put out a gas fire. A lithium chemical fire is going to be much harder to extinguish and likely going to require a HazMat response.

I have never kept a car in a garage and I kept all of the flammable liquids away from the house.

There is a video of a guy shooting a LiFePo battery with pistol, so no 12ga, and then tossing the battery into a fire. The LiFePo battery did not catch fire. The odds of one of the power walls catching fire are low, but if it does, one had better have good insurance. I had a Dewalt NiCad battery almost catch fire once upon a time. No reason for that to have happened. It just shorted out for some reason. I got lucky in that I smelled smoke, found the over heating battery, and tossed it outside before it caught fire. If it had caught fire, it would have spread but I think I could have contained the blaze. The Dewalt battery is pretty simple with only a few electrical connections, compared to a PowerWall made up of thousands of batteries and corresponding connections.

The flammability of the battery chemistry should be a consideration, among others, when looking at battery back up for a house. Since there are safer lithium battery chemistries from different equipment companies, and one is not locked into a single company, it is an easy to choice to make as far as I am concerned.

Later,
Dan

 

[Larry Caldwell]

im not that paranoid. ive had attached garages my entire life.

That's why the IBC requires a 1 hour firewall assembly between the garage and living space in a house. Built well it can save the house. I saw a new remodel with a garage fire once. A car caught on fire in the garage. The fire department drug a hose through the house, opened the garage doors, and blew the fire right out of the house. No smoke damage to the living area, and no structural damage to the garage.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

It doesn't matter whether it's gas or battery operated. Once a car fire starts, there is plenty of other flammable materials to keep it going.

I got to pull a fire alarm once. I saw a car fire start on the top deck of a parking structure, smoke coming from under the hood. First it was just a puff of smoke, but quickly got bigger. By the time the fire department got there the whole front half was on fire. They pulled it out away from other cars, but didn't really try to put it out, just foamed it and let it burn.

I also ran across this one in a parking lot next to where I worked. From the position of the vehicle, it must have caught on fire while someone was driving it. It was a block from the main fire station, so this is how fast a vehicle fire can progress.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

That's why my whole house backup batteries aren't attached to the house, (bolted to a concrete wall, surrounded by concrete). I don't keep any solvents in the garage, most of my solvents and fuels are in a fireproof locker, and almost all of them are in metal containers. I do have a push to dispense 1.25gal plastic gas can for refilling the chainsaw; the metal ones were just too messy during refueling.

We live in a wild land fire zone. Some things are just prudent given the baseline risk of fire here. YMMV, of course.

I will say that having batteries backed up by solar has been great.

All the best,

Peter

My setup is similar. The wood shed/garden shed is about 50 feet from the house, and is my flammable storage site. All my propane/gasoline/paint/solvent along with firewood is stored in that building. There is a hot work area in my shop lined with Type X sheetrock, but my coal forge is on wheels and only gets lit outdoors. I have a little propane forge that I sometimes use inside the shop, particularly when it's too dry to start any fire outdoors.

 

[ponytug]

The problem with a lithium fueled fire vs gasoline, is that the fire department has a chance to put out a gas fire. A lithium chemical fire is going to be much harder to extinguish and likely going to require a HazMat response.

I have never kept a car in a garage and I kept all of the flammable liquids away from the house.

There is a video of a guy shooting a LiFePo battery with pistol, so no 12ga, and then tossing the battery into a fire. The LiFePo battery did not catch fire. The odds of one of the power walls catching fire are low, but if it does, one had better have good insurance. I had a Dewalt NiCad battery almost catch fire once upon a time. No reason for that to have happened. It just shorted out for some reason. I got lucky in that I smelled smoke, found the over heating battery, and tossed it outside before it caught fire. If it had caught fire, it would have spread but I think I could have contained the blaze. The Dewalt battery is pretty simple with only a few electrical connections, compared to a PowerWall made up of thousands of batteries and corresponding connections.

The flammability of the battery chemistry should be a consideration, among others, when looking at battery back up for a house. Since there are safer lithium battery chemistries from different equipment companies, and one is not locked into a single company, it is an easy to choice to make as far as I am concerned.

Later,
Dan

On the firefighting, Tesla's advice has changed from "flood it until cold" to something more along the lines of spray enough water to keep things around it from catching fire. I suspect that is a result of not wanting to wash toxics into local waterways. The recent Lubriplate grease manufacturing plant fire was fought similarly because of a stream close by.

I agree with you that there are a lot of ways to "skin the cat" so to speak, and there a bunch of things that the battery makers are trying to optimize; cost/kWh, kWh/kg, longevity, decay/discharge cycle, depth of discharge with minimal damage, and safety (flammability, resistance to thermal runaway during short circuits, etc.)

At the moment, there isn't a single winner out there (yet), there are only compromises, which is why there a bunch of possibilities available.

I wouldn't put a large lithium ion battery in my bedroom, but in the big picture, once it is a couple of feet away from the house, it would only really be a problem if someone hit it at speed with a heavy vehicle. (Which is why, around here, you have to install hefty bollards every thirty six inches if you want to install batteries inside a garage.) On the other hand, I probably have half a dozen small lithium batteries in the house already.

If you are curious, here is the UL9540A test standard. Tesla's Powerwall, and I believe the Enphase batteries meet it;
UL 9540A Battery Energy Storage System (ESS) Test Method

The test videos are pretty impressive in terms of how hard it is to get a pack to light up.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ponytug]

Lithium iron phosphate UL9540A test video;

Note this is an 83kWh pack, closer to what a car would have.

Lithium ion UL9540A test video, with fairly lengthy explanations of the test, along with the test videos, where you can see the actual damage;

Again, this is a large battery pack, basically a worst case scenario.

Personally I am surprised on how little burnt besides the batteries.

All the best,

Peter

 

[plowhog]

I had a Dewalt NiCad battery almost catch fire once upon a time.

I was brush hogging weeds a few years ago. My tractor hit a bump, causing a spare Dewalt battery in my toolbox to bounce out onto the ground. Mower blade sliced it in half.

Instant fire, instant flames, instant emergency. Fire quickly out of control. Wife called 911, and we spent the next 20-30 mins fighting the fire ourselves. Discharged everything we had at it, then used buckets of water. Responding firefighters were amazed we had contained the fire ourselves, at least mostly.

A fire investigator examined the scene, found the sliced battery, and set it aside. 90 minutes later the battery remnant was still so hot you could not handle it without being burned. They asked permission to take the battery remnant to display in their fire museum. They said they had heard of lithium battery fires, but this was their first one. I gave them the battery.

 

[Jstpssng]

I was brush hogging weeds a few years ago. My tractor hit a bump, causing a spare Dewalt battery in my toolbox to bounce out onto the ground. Mower blade sliced it in half.

Instant fire, instant flames, instant emergency. Fire quickly out of control. Wife called 911, and we spent the next 20-30 mins fighting the fire ourselves. Discharged everything we had at it, then used buckets of water. Responding firefighters were amazed we had contained the fire ourselves, at least mostly.

A fire investigator examined the scene, found the sliced battery, and set it aside. 90 minutes later the battery remnant was still so hot you could not handle it without being burned. They asked permission to take the battery remnant to display in their fire museum. They said they had heard of lithium battery fires, but this was their first one. I gave them the battery.

And they use lithium to make crystal meth... not that the users are the brightest bulbs in the light.

 

[MossRoad]

Last year I put a new battery in my iPhone 6. They are supposed to be taped in with something similar to a command strip. You pull the tab and the tape comes out from under the battery and out it comes. Well, the tab broke. So while trying to gently pry the battery out of the phone, the battery bent and POOF! a little spark came out of it. It immediately started smoking and a hole started burning through from the inside out. So I quickly stopped being delicate and yanked it out of there and trough it on the cement floor. I grabbed it with a wood stove glove and ran it outside and threw it in the birdbath!