Ugh!! Water Well contractors...

[Valveman]

Okay; getting a well drilled takes some waiting.

Do it yourself. Build a Baptist type rig. Lots of variations and not expensive. Good for up to about three hundred feet. Take three or so days depending on soil conditions. These rigs are more sensitive to finding low flow seams than the normal rotary rig. They are quite simple and easy to operate.

Don’t know about the legal end of drilling a well these days but that’s something that has to be looked into.

Every state is different. In Texas you can drill your own well on your own property, as long as it is drilled and sealed to specification.

 

[npalen]

I'm wondering about the correlation between well pumps and HVAC compressors when talking inverter powered. I get the impression from posts that inverter powered is bad for well pumps and good for HVAC compressors. So wondering what is the basic difference between the two applications?

 

[Valveman]

Agree with old drillers remembering well info on wells they drilled, but would look for the cigar was that was in their mouth. I also like Franklin motors. Goulds 4 inch sub pumps were great when they used Franklin. The company I used to work for quit using Goulds after about 50 years due to that motor change. They went to Franklin pump & motors. I think these Franklin Pumps are rebranded by a few other companies/names now. I mostly drilled but did help pull & install some pumps and the pumps that seemed to last the longest were Goulds Slimline models with Franklins. A lot of them lasted 40 years. Jacuzzi were another long lasting 4 inch sub, of course they had a Franklin. There was one contractor in our area back then who used Jacuzzi 1/2 hp 5 gpm in 300 ft wells. He hung them on 1inch galv & used 3wire 230 volt Jacuzzi, with a small tank, sometime the inside well bladder, ( do u remember those) we were always amazed how long his Jacuzzis lasted, in our opinion his systems were slightly undersized but no one could argue their longevity I wish Goulds & Grundfos would have continued to use Franklin. But that was a while back and maybe their own motors are fine now.

I agree a good well driller is hard to find but same goes to all trades now. I hate to call anyone for service now, it is painful and most do not even call you back.

Franklin bought out Jacuzzi and changed a perfectly good design. I have seen pump/motor companies change the design many times over the years, and it is never to make a better pump. When something last longer than the 7 year average they design for, they change the design. Gould and Grundfos make excellent pumps, but had to start making their own motors when Franklin bought Jacuzzi and stopped selling motors to other pump companies. If a judge hadn't made Franklin keep selling them motors for a while, they would not have had time to develop their own motors, and would have gone out of business. I think that was the plan all along. Glad it didn't work. But now all other pump companies are building their own motors and have had some bugs to work out. They are getting better. For now I am using Franklin motors on Grundfos or Goulds pumps. As soon as they get the bugs worked out I will never buy another Franklin product.

The "inside well bladder" was called the Tank Eliminator". Had to get down to 18 PSI before they would give much draw down. I have the patent on the "in Well Pressure Tank"\, which is a much better design. However, I never put one on the market as I couldn't get one to last long enough for me. There are problems trying to build a long and skinny pressure tank. There is one on the market now from a company who wouldn't have anything to do with it until my patent expired.

 

[Valveman]

I'm wondering about the correlation between well pumps and HVAC compressors when talking inverter powered. I get the impression from posts that inverter powered is bad for well pumps and good for HVAC compressors. So wondering what is the basic difference between the two applications?

Inverters are bad for all motors, including compressor motors. However, a compressor is a positive displacement type pump where a well pump is centrifugal. I think what you are talking about it that varying the speed of a compressor can reduce energy consumption, but actually increases energy consumption with a centrifugal pump. The rapid rate of switching, the high peak voltages, and harmonic content of the power created by and inverter is bad for any motor. It just maybe that when used on a compressor an inverter can save enough energy to be worth all the trouble and expense, but no so with a well pump.

 

[Valveman]

That's interesting that there is a local bias against water storage. Here it is the reverse; you have to have a minimum amount of storage to build/sell a place. It is framed as fire reserves. I think that new home construction includes 10,000 gallons of storage, if sprinklers are installed, or 30,000 gallons if they aren't installed.

Have you thought of augmenting the flow you have with rain water storage? The folks down under use it quite a bit to extend supplies, and have some nice setups where both rain water and well or city water is plumbed together at different pressures so that there is an automatic rollover from rain water to pumped water for things like toilets or irrigation.

All the best,

Peter

For those who have animals, it is peace of mind that you have time to fix things.

Yeah in Texas if you see a cistern or rain catchment tank, you know you are in an area without good ground water. In CA, cistern storage tanks are mandated for fire suppression. Most houses in CA also require about a 30-35 GPM fire sprinkler system. We sell a lot of Cycle Stop Valves in CA so they can have a 35 GPM pump for fire sprinklers, and the CSV makes it work at 2 GPM when only one shower in the house is being used. Eliminating the cycling makes the pump last much longer. Otherwise they cycle a 35 GPM pump to death and it is very likely to quit when they have a fire and really need it.

 

[Valveman]

Yeah!

We call ours 'paradise', only one hour north of Montreal, 20 mins to great skiing, all kinds of wild lfe from moose, deer and even once saw a bobcat.
Oh, and water so pure as it is all spring fed and at the top of the watershed.
Lake is about 1 mile long and we banned all powered watercraft and had it enacted as a federal law.
Added to that 70% of the surrounding is a nature preserve so no more development permitted.

And, back then I was gov't 'lease to buy land'
In the '70's I paid $25/yr to lease and purchased as soon as I met the conditions..

LOL, even a Cosco is a mere 1/2 hour south and a Walmart 1/2 hr north.
Can't be better.
Oh, and is the air pure and fresh.
Downside is a lot of snow come winter.

I am not much for the cold weather, but I hear 20 below keeps the Rif Raff out. Lol!

 

[PILOON]

I am not much for the cold weather, but I hear 20 below keeps the Rif Raff out. Lol!

Also keeps out 'street people', well most anyway.

Now the big push is to 'affordable housing' to get people off the street.
Problem is. considering all the bylaws, how to convince builders to build at a loss.
Those 'affordable' rental units have to be almost indestructible due to the nature of the tenants.
i.e. Concrete decks, metal railings, steel doors and frames and add ultimate fire protection and escapes.
Then adequate parking and power outlets etc.
I had occasion to briefly visit a recent such project and the 'pot' smoke was unbearable and the parking area totally full up as they all seemed to have multiple cars. That was mid day and full up as nobody seemed to work.

 

[ponytug]

I'm wondering about the correlation between well pumps and HVAC compressors when talking inverter powered. I get the impression from posts that inverter powered is bad for well pumps and good for HVAC compressors. So wondering what is the basic difference between the two applications?

Inverters let you program in voltage, frequency and current. Inverters give you great control over things such as motor speed, startup current, and braking. However, because the electrical parameters are digital, they can go from 0%-200% almost instantaneously, which causes electrical spikes and harmonics. This is harder on both the motor wiring, which needs better insulation, and may require modified winding techniques, as well as better designed rotors and stators to handle the harmonics. So, while inverters can be paired with "any old motor", the motor may not last as long depending upon how the inverter is programmed and used. Ideally, an inverter is always used with an inverter rated motor. In an ideal world, the inverter is close to the motor (as in inches to tens of inches), as wire length alone will affect the harmonics, which can be reduced with filters, and better inverters. The motor itself is an inductor, and will have its own particular resonance.

The advantages of an inverter on a well include things like soft start/stop, lower starting current, avoiding startup and shutdown water hammer, and reducing the torque on plumbing. However, as far as I know, there aren't many inverter rated down well pump motors, which is why I think that they aren't generally recommended. On the surface, inverter driven pumps are used in factories routinely for their ability to exactly match output with demand, minimizing energy consumption and product losses.

It is that ability to exactly match supply with demand at minimum energy that has caused such high penetration into the HVAC market, where cooling and heating is rarely 100%, and thus being able to throttle the refrigerant by adjusting the compressor motor speed gives exactly the right amount of cooling at the minimum amount of energy.

I think that home water use is too intermittent to benefit much from a just it time water flow, though Grundfos sells a pump with a tiny pressure chamber that adjusts flow to meet demand, without a big pressure tank, and with a more even pressure level.

All the best,

Peter

 

[npalen]

Inverters let you program in voltage, frequency and current. Inverters give you great control over things such as motor speed, startup current, and braking. However, because the electrical parameters are digital, they can go from 0%-200% almost instantaneously, which causes electrical spikes and harmonics. This is harder on both the motor wiring, which needs better insulation, and may require modified winding techniques, as well as better designed rotors and stators to handle the harmonics. So, while inverters can be paired with "any old motor", the motor may not last as long depending upon how the inverter is programmed and used. Ideally, an inverter is always used with an inverter rated motor. In an ideal world, the inverter is close to the motor (as in inches to tens of inches), as wire length alone will affect the harmonics, which can be reduced with filters, and better inverters. The motor itself is an inductor, and will have its own particular resonance.

The advantages of an inverter on a well include things like soft start/stop, lower starting current, avoiding startup and shutdown water hammer, and reducing the torque on plumbing. However, as far as I know, there aren't many inverter rated down well pump motors, which is why I think that they aren't generally recommended. On the surface, inverter driven pumps are used in factories routinely for their ability to exactly match output with demand, minimizing energy consumption and product losses.

It is that ability to exactly match supply with demand at minimum energy that has caused such high penetration into the HVAC market, where cooling and heating is rarely 100%, and thus being able to throttle the refrigerant by adjusting the compressor motor speed gives exactly the right amount of cooling at the minimum amount of energy.

I think that home water use is too intermittent to benefit much from a just it time water flow, though Grundfos sells a pump with a tiny pressure chamber that adjusts flow to meet demand, without a big pressure tank, and with a more even pressure level.

All the best,

Peter

a tiny pressure chamber that adjusts flow to meet demand, without a big pressure tank, and with a more even pressure level.
So that sounds like a built-in CSV, right?

I've noticed, on our Lennox 1.0 ton mini-split, that it takes a long time to shut off when approaching the set temp. Is this a combination of sensing outdoor temp as well as near set point temp and inverter slowing the compressor to keep it running as long as possible? I've read that mini-splits work best (most economical) when running as much as possible so that is what "it" is trying to achieve?

 

[Valveman]

Inverters let you program in voltage, frequency and current. Inverters give you great control over things such as motor speed, startup current, and braking. However, because the electrical parameters are digital, they can go from 0%-200% almost instantaneously, which causes electrical spikes and harmonics. This is harder on both the motor wiring, which needs better insulation, and may require modified winding techniques, as well as better designed rotors and stators to handle the harmonics. So, while inverters can be paired with "any old motor", the motor may not last as long depending upon how the inverter is programmed and used. Ideally, an inverter is always used with an inverter rated motor. In an ideal world, the inverter is close to the motor (as in inches to tens of inches), as wire length alone will affect the harmonics, which can be reduced with filters, and better inverters. The motor itself is an inductor, and will have its own particular resonance.

The advantages of an inverter on a well include things like soft start/stop, lower starting current, avoiding startup and shutdown water hammer, and reducing the torque on plumbing. However, as far as I know, there aren't many inverter rated down well pump motors, which is why I think that they aren't generally recommended. On the surface, inverter driven pumps are used in factories routinely for their ability to exactly match output with demand, minimizing energy consumption and product losses.

It is that ability to exactly match supply with demand at minimum energy that has caused such high penetration into the HVAC market, where cooling and heating is rarely 100%, and thus being able to throttle the refrigerant by adjusting the compressor motor speed gives exactly the right amount of cooling at the minimum amount of energy.

I think that home water use is too intermittent to benefit much from a just it time water flow, though Grundfos sells a pump with a tiny pressure chamber that adjusts flow to meet demand, without a big pressure tank, and with a more even pressure level.

All the best,

Peter

Oh I am afraid using inverters, better knows as VFD's for down well pumps is not only recommended these days, but heavily pushed on every unsuspecting homeowner who is out of water and at the mercy of the installer. They use that phrase..."Adjusting the compressor motor speed gives exactly the right amount of cooling at the minimum amount of energy". Only a well pump is centrifugal, not positive displacement like a compressor, and reducing the speed actually increases the amount of energy used for the gallons of water produced. Yet millions are falling for the "energy savings lie" and think the problems inverter's or VFD's cause, as you just touched the tip of the ice burg on, are worth the added expense and short life of a "variable speed pump".

It is true that reducing the speed of a pump also reduces the energy needed to spin the pump and motor. However, using half the energy a variable speed pump has to run ten times as long to pump the same amount of water. The variable speed pump can use up to five times (500%) more energy than a standard full speed, inexpensive, and long lived well pump.

However, "home water use is (NOT) too intermittent to benefit much from a just it time water flow". The idea of the variable speed pump is good for many reasons. Working with a small pressure tank the pump will cycle for small amounts of water. Although, the benefit of "constant pressure" means the pump will never cycle during a long term use of water. A standard full speed pump with a large pressure tank will cycle less when small amounts of water are being used. But even with a large pressure tank system, cycling during long term uses of water can add up to destroy pumps much more quickly than necessary.

Along with being able to use a small pressure tank and "Things like soft start/stop, lower starting current, avoiding startup and shutdown water hammer, and reducing the torque on plumbing", there are many other benefits to a constant pressure well pump system. Out of sheer luck over thirty years ago I discovered a simple control valve can deliver "constant pressure" similar to or even better than a VFD. The difference is the valve is simple, inexpensive, and doesn't have all the problems that go with "electronic pulse width modulation", which is variable speed or VFD.

It is also an amazing fact of physics that when restricting a full speed centrifugal pump with a valve will the amp draw or energy used will reduce almost exactly as much as if you were reducing the pump speed with a VFD. I will try to find a pump horsepower curve to post. It is counter intuitive and hard to understand without a curve.